~20kW Charging?

[nwdiver]

I've been trying to think of a way to pose this question. There's a widening gap between L2 and L3 charging at least in the Tesla world. It used to be ~20kW to ~100kW but now the fastest L2 in a new Tesla is 48A (~11.4kW) while Supercharging is ~250kW.

I'll use the CyberTruck for context. It may have a 200kWh battery. So... what's the best path for charging? An onboard 80A charger like the older Tesla had? Or... an optional off-board 20kW L3 charger that ALL Teslas could use? Basically if you want to have the ability to charge faster than ~11.4kW what would you prefer? The option to buy and install a ~$3k mini-supercharger or a better onboard charger?

 

[pb2000]

I think 20-30kW would be pretty useful for more remote areas and business owners who want a step above L2 destination chargers. You could probably bolt two chargers that size right to the side of an electrical pole and not have to move even a teaspoon of dirt.

Edit: I should add that there are a lot of 32A SR+ cars out there, for which this size charger poses a much greater benefit.

 

[Booga]

What are the circumstances in which an off-board faster DC charger is helpful? For daily use, the goal might just be that it can charge overnight, maybe 6-10 hours? I'd assume the use cases are small enough that most don't want the added equipment of a DC charger/converter at their home?

 

[pb2000]

From the home charging standpoint, I don't think anything over 48A makes any sense, even if the Cybertruck pack is >150kWh. 12 hours of overnight charging still gets you a full 15% to 90% charge. The vast majority of houses probably also don't have the spare electrical capacity for a 20kW charger (92A @ 240V assuming a 91% AC-DC efficiency)

 

[hmcgregoraz]

I know there is a big push for "faster" charging at home, and I have fallen into that too.

When we were building out our new house, I had both wall connectors run with 100 amp breakers. Now we are looking at down grading a breaker to 60 amps to be code complaint with the solar we are looking at adding to that panel.

The reality is even 20amp 240V (16 amp usable), is plenty for most uses, and 60amp 240 (48amp) will max out all current Tesla vehicles.

The lower the amperage that lower the peak KW which can impact commercial (and some residential costs).

The higher power L3 for small commercial use sounds sane (private mini supercharger), but most businesses will find the power requirements and peak demand chargers to be quite unpleasant.

I have advocated a for lower amperage, and even 120V charging for long term parking locations, such as airport parking.

-Harry

 

[nwdiver]

What are the circumstances in which an off-board faster DC charger is helpful? For daily use, the goal might just be that it can charge overnight, maybe 6-10 hours? I'd assume the use cases are small enough that most don't want the added equipment of a DC charger/converter at their home?

My is a 2012 with 80A charging. It's only been useful a handful of times but I've been glad to have it. I guess that's the trick... if there had been a supercharge available instead of a HPWC I obviously would have preferred that. I think the biggest use might be that you could have dozens of ~20kW chargers peppering an area so you can choose to stop somewhere else to eat or something that may not have a supercharger. I think maybe the urban chargers will just fill this role. Possible that ~10kW is fine and anything 10-70kW just isn't very useful.

 

[pb2000]

I have advocated a for lower amperage, and even 120V charging for long term parking locations, such as airport parking.

120V charging is terribly inefficient, so we almost need a new NEMA standard for 5A 240V (NEMA 6-6?) charging that supports 3 or 5 plugs on a single 20 or 30A circuit respectively.

 

[nwdiver]

120V charging is terribly inefficient, so we almost need a new NEMA standard for 5A 240V (NEMA 6-6?) charging that supports 3 or 5 plugs on a single 20 or 30A circuit respectively.

I think the best route there would be a load sharing 'octopus'; Have a ~40A circuit that feeds 8 stalls through one EVSE.

 

[pb2000]

I think the best route there would be a load sharing 'octopus'; Have a ~40A circuit that feeds 8 stalls through one EVSE.

Adding a few plugs and even supplying the adapters for the mobile connector would be far cheaper than any load balancing EVSE. Not sure if other EV manufactures have chargers with swappable NEMA ends, so they may still need a J1772 octopus.

 

[miimura]

For $7,500 you can buy a portable CHAdeMO charger that runs off a 100A 240V circuit. With that and a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter, you can charge any Tesla vehicle at up to 20kW. Probably more like 16kW since it's 40A DC. It would be better if it was up to 50A DC and limited to 19.2kW (80% of the 100A circuit)

EVTV Motor Verks Store: 20 kW CHAdeMO Portable Fast Charger, Battery Chargers, 20kwchademo

 

[hmcgregoraz]

120V charging is terribly inefficient, so we almost need a new NEMA standard for 5A 240V (NEMA 6-6?) charging that supports 3 or 5 plugs on a single 20 or 30A circuit respectively.

I agree lower amp 240v would be nice, but 120v in the US is so common, it probably would not be replaced.

I am talking places like off airport parking, such as preflight in Phoenix (PreFlight Parking - System Down for Maintenance).

We were able to drive straight from Tucson, plug in our mobile connector, and we had a 90% charge by the time we returned a week later.

-Harry

 

[cwerdna]

In Japan, per CHAdeMO Make/Model Review — Using with a Tesla, DC chargers that are under 40 kW are referred to as "intermediate" chargers.

I kinda wish that would catch on here... maybe not with that cutoff necessarily.

I have used ChargePoint Express 100 CPE100 - $12500.00 - Smart Charge America (which was available in CHAdeMO, as well) which is "24 kW" at max. There's a BMW/Bosch version of the same unit and there are Delta DC chargers that are about this slow (25 kW: Products - DC Charger - DC Wallbox - Delta Group).

The one I used w/my Bolt was PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You. The dealer I bought my Bolt from had a couple of units like these but not ChargePoint branded (PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You). I've seen pics of some Chevy dealers have a Delta 25 kW CCS charger with a Chevy logo on it.

My is a 2012 with 80A charging. It's only been useful a handful of times but I've been glad to have it.

My work had several Tesla HPWCs, each on 100 amp circuits and those 80 amp max output. We had a few vehicles w/80 amps of OBC and a fair # with 72 amps.

Eventually, I learned of a newer version (version before current) that allowed for load sharing, so we got those older HPWCs swapped in with twice as many of a newer version w/load sharing arrangement. Was much cheaper than the crazy amount of $ our facilities dept was quoted to add just 4 more HPWCs due to electrical limitations in our parking structure.

In the load sharing arrangement, at least when one side is done or not plugged in, that vehicle w/72+ amp OBC can spend less time charging and tying up a wall connector plug.

 

[nwdiver]

Locations Near You). I've seen pics of some Chevy dealers have a Delta 25 kW CCS charger with a Chevy logo on it.

And you can even get it on amazon... $11k!?

Kinda crazy when you consider Dual chargers was a $1k upgrade and a 80A HPWC is ~$500. That's 20kW for $1500 vs 25kW for .... $11k.

 

[miimura]

And you can even get it on amazon... $11k!?

Kinda crazy when you consider Dual chargers was a $1k upgrade and a 80A HPWC is ~$500. That's 20kW for $1500 vs 25kW for .... $11k.

At least it's 65A DC so it can actually deliver 25kW unless your car has a lower voltage pack like the Model S 60 and it's really empty. Also, the 3-phase versions are $1k cheaper.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

BC has a number of rest stops with 25 KW DCFC Chademo/CCS stations. These are located in isolated highways with only single phase power available. They are sometimes located with a single J1772 as backup. These sites are not common but can be a lifesaver for some trips. There are a couple of these on the Coquihalla Highway

 

[Brock-WI]

I would assume even charging with a 20kw DC charger would count as a supercharging session as far as Tesla is concerned. If so this could potentially reduce true supercharging rates if used a bunch.

 

[wws]

I suspect that if there are any future upgrade options, they would be either 72 or 96 amps. Reason is that they divide nicely by three - 3x24 and 3x32 - giving more commonality with cars having Type 2 (three phase) inlets. On the other hand, given that the Model 3 and Y battery packs include the charging electronics internally, there could be a space issue with going larger than 48 amps.

On a road trip last year, I used one of those Delta 25 kW CHAdeMO chargers in Tooele, Utah via a CHAdeMO adapter. Worked great.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

I suspect that if there are any future upgrade options, they would be either 72 or 96 amps. Reason is that they divide nicely by three - 3x24 and 3x32 - giving more commonality with cars having Type 2 (three phase) inlets. On the other hand, given that the Model 3 and Y battery packs include the charging electronics internally, there could be a space issue with going larger than 48 amps.

On a road trip last year, I used one of those Delta 25 kW CHAdeMO chargers in Tooele, Utah via a CHAdeMO adapter. Worked great.

They do work great albeit it slow. But as part of a planned trip involving a picnic lunch etc, they are useful for smaller battery pack cars like our old Leaf.

And kudos to BC hydro for providing a less than perfect solution albeit a solution in isolated places with limited power resources.

 

[EfficientWatts]

Boost Charger - FreeWire Technologies

This could be a nice alternative for areas with less power available. With battery backup it could fast charge at full speeds, refill slowly when not in use. Worst case it will charge the car at the service supply (~27kW).

I think others pointed out this could be used even in areas with available power to charge a full power one to avoid demand charge issues, though in that case a more flexible model that could use the full power directly from the grid would be nice.

I think this is kind of what Tesla is doing with SC deployments that have Powepack backing, but on a more integrated scale.