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22% depreciation in 8 months [Update: sold it for 5.4% less than new price]

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Marius A, Nov 28, 2019.

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  1. holmgang

    holmgang Active Member

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    I simply wouldn't pay above MSRP for a pre-owned one out of principle.

    Ballpark, half a year old vehicle should have ~10% taken off new price ?

    Saw one in exact config I would have ordered, and guy wanted 5-10% above new price. And he was a Tesla employee. I don't think that's so nice. I'll wait 1-2 months to have one that hasn't been farted in.
     
  2. Marius A

    Marius A Member

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    Never know what those AutoLink guys do on the way down the ramp.

    That was my thought as well, but I have no idea how much the stealth is now. The thing that is attractive about his car is the fact that getting a stealth in Norway is pretty much impossible at this point. It's not like they've been jumping through hoops to deliver yours
     
  3. holmgang

    holmgang Active Member

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    Small difference being Tesla does sell used Teslas on their website, so they are in that business, even if not their main focus. Rather than having to dump off other branded cars at wholesale. And they even have advantage of adding value to the used car with software upgrades like FSD, at no cost to them.
     
  4. tvad

    tvad Member

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    My thought as well.

    It's like Stockholm Syndrome for Tesla owners.
     
  5. qdeathstar

    qdeathstar Active Member

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    My car has been great in terms of quality.... FSD is clearly a beta product, i agree that Tesla oversells it but a quick google search before spending 50K would have let you know what it expect.


    I haven’t found my car to be any noisier than anything else i’ve driven. Did you test drive the car before you bought it?
     
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  6. SD_Engnr

    SD_Engnr Active Member

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    That's great. Did you provide the new owner with a full disclosure of all the issues you were experiencing?
     
  7. Marius A

    Marius A Member

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    Yep, we agreed to deliver after my next service appointment.
    It's a used car seller, and they didn't care about the state of the car. "We'll buy it unless it's been in a crash before."
     
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  8. Marius A

    Marius A Member

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    It became noisier after they changed the roof. It's still a quiet car, but it's a noticeable difference. I'm very happy about the noise level in the TM3. I'm going to put the roof isolation kit on my 3P+ to make it even better. I think a lot of people react because EVs are inherently quiet, and road noise becomes much more apparent
     
  9. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    Every objective testing I've seen done says Tesla has the best more advanced system on the market other than, perhaps, Cadillac- and Caddys system is not usable at all on about 90% of the roads Teslas works on.

    Here's Tesla vs Hyundai specifically (and Mercedes and Caddy too)-
    https://www.motortrend.com/news/testing-semi-autonomous-cars-tesla-cadillac-hyundai-mercedes

    The Hyundai was, by far, the worst for reacting/slowing quickly when someone abruptly cut you off... and then worst again for accelerating...and then worst again for leaving gaps between cars in stop and go...Tesla was best in all tests.... Tesla was also greatly superior to the Hyundai (and everyone else) in nearest follow distance at normal speed... steering results again were not great for hyundai compared to everyone else... Basically they were dead last in virtually every test...Tesla generally #1 in every test.





    Tesla Model 3 Autopilot Outperforms Competitors In Lane-Keeping Test

    Tesla model 3 beats both BMW and Mercedes (and everybody else) in IIHS testing.

    In 36 tests run across a variety of roads the Model 3 drove outside its lane only once, ever... the Mercedes did it 12 times- the BMW 33 times.


    Cadillac Tops Tesla in Consumer Reports' First Ranking of Automated Driving Systems

    Tesla was #1 in capabilities and performance (by a pretty big margin)- Caddy only "won" (to Teslas #2) due to the more advanced "is the driver paying attention" system and having a more obvious lockout for where not to use it.





    So yes- it simply is true Teslas system is generally the best, and significantly more advanced that what others offer.

    And that's just basic AP at this point... there's almost nothing comparable to things like NoA from other car makers... (granted this seems to mainly be of value in the US where you aren't)
     
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  10. Marius A

    Marius A Member

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    That means that either my car is messed up beyond what is normal, or those tests do not reflect real life scenarios.
    I almost get rear-ended every time I use autopilot on the highway because of ghost breaking. I can't use it in stop-and-go traffic because get stuck while people pull in, and those behind me are honking like mad.
    My Ioniq did these things fine, and my father-in-law's Mercedes behaves very nicely.

    Judging by this very unofficial report from 2000 Tesla drivers the majority of drivers find the ghost/phantom breaking the biggest pain, so I don't think I'm alone What Tesla drivers really think about Autopilot?

    If Autopilot is amazing 99% of the time and dangerous 1% of the time then it's worse than a competing system which is less amazing most of the time and not dangerous all the time.

    On Norwegian roads the autosteer can be horrifying, because when two lanes merge we don't have painted stripes. This causes autosteer to veer HARD to the right, even when doing 110km/h+. I know road markings varies from country to country, so I assume this behavior will get better when Tesla realizes that "keep the right line at all costs" is not a good default behavior for everyone.
     
  11. Fredneck

    Fredneck Member

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    Yes, and they have been working to reduce their inventory. The Rockville Service Center said they would have a hard time getting me a loaner because Tesla has taken away most of them.
     
  12. argon2018

    argon2018 Member

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    every model 3 owner has these problems. The fact that your phone doesn’t unlock your car all the time, is phone related actually (been there). Auto-viper is improving with the new neural net. Road noise normal.

    what are you listing here is totally ridiculous. Please don’t buy any more Tesla’s and waste Tesla service centers time. Just buy another brand please
     
  13. Fredneck

    Fredneck Member

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    It's not important how Tesla compares to other car companies. The test is against a subjective standard of consumers being comfortable using it as well as an objective test of safety.

    As Yoda said, “Do or do not. There is no try.”
     
  14. argon2018

    argon2018 Member

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    What was your last car? You do understand that summon is in beta? Seriously what are you thinking?
    Lemon law doesn’t apply here. People abuse lemon law. This is total BS
     
  15. Fredneck

    Fredneck Member

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    I agree 100% with your opinion of Tesla Service. I have taken my car to the Richmond center multiple times and they have failed to do anything about numerous problems they had actually witnessed themselves before. They lose information I provide documenting the defects and fail to download the trouble reports from the car before they are erased.

    While I love driving the car, I would return it for a refund in a heartbeat. In terms of driving it is a great vehicle. In terms of owning the car it is a total piece of crap, mostly because I have to deal with Tesla who is a piece of crap of a car maker. Tesla is a fantastic innovator, but they are clueless as an automotive company. I think the truck is the final evidence in that matter. While they will sell "early adopter" numbers, that vehicle will never be an influence on the market. I think the model Y is their last opportunity to become a real automotive competitor.
     
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  16. Marius A

    Marius A Member

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    On my car, summon isn't working. I know the zealots in here go mental when someone criticises Tesla, but the service technician said straight out that it should work in the spot where I demonstrated, and the app couldn't even connect to the car.
    My TM3 is right next to several other Tesla's, but mine is the only one without a connection.

    What's really bullshit is people who will justify literally broken features with memorized statements about beta-features.
    If you pay $5.5k for features that in a period of 8 months do not work then it's OK to be pissed. If you get a car which is built around app access but cannot connect to the internet it is OK to be pissed. If you get a car that you have to heat up with a hair drier to get inside and start a defrost function, it is OK to be pissed.

    From what the fanboys in here are saying it sounds like you are all OK with buying a car for $60k where the only working feature is driving fast, and you expect everyone else to be happy about that.
    What they should be is happy that more people are taking a chance on the brand, because if the TM3 is reserved for hardcore fanboys then the company will go broke.

    Here is a complete list of things working and not working on my car, including things that everyone are struggling with.
    • Car starts every time
    • Car accelerates really fast
    • Car understeers a lot for an AWD. Which I don't mind, it's fun (but not effective)
    • TACC works most of the time, but will emergency brake for things that aren't there. Will also revert to CC only if there's medium rain or snow
    • Lane assist works brilliantly most of the time, but will steer sharp to the right if lanes merge without markings.
    • App cannot wake the car a lot of the time. Even Tesla roadside assistance cannot get in touch with the car.
    • Phone as a key works semi-good. Tested with 7 different phones with power saving turned off, location and radio scanning turned on (always, not only when active)
    • Summon doesn't even work in an empty parking lot. On my car it's just a function which turns the headlights on for 5 seconds.
    • Autopark is so bad they shouldn't even have it listed as a feature. Takes minutes to park in an easy spot. It cannot compete with a 7 year old Skoda Superb
    • Spotify works most of the time, but will suddenly stop loading. Timer counts down, no music plays, switching songs work but no sound.
    • Autowipers do not work
    • Navigate on autopilot works for off-ramps on highways. Will pester me about switching lanes up to 59km before the exit. Pressing cancel 10-15 times will make it go away
    • Pre-heating doesn't work most of the time, because the car cannot wake up
    • Door handles are frozen in place when less than -2C outside
    • They forgot to make lumbar support able to save to drivers profile
    • Lane departure assist does not work. Neither warn/chime nor assist.
    • Only screen in car sometimes blacks out. Have to stop and reboot the car to get a speedometer
    • Rear camera is fantastic
    • Emergency braking for pedestrians does not work, drove straight into a ghost person yesterday
    • Great range, absolutely brilliant for an EV
    • The most fun car I've tried since Lotus Esprit
    It's OK to be pissed. It's not the end of the world.
    You can even take it as a compliment if you put some effort into it. This car that you love so much, I like it so much I would buy a new one, a faster more expensive one, because I can live with the issues everyone has, I just can't live with those issues in addition to having to thaw my way into my car with a hairdrier 4-5 months of the year.
     
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  17. Fredneck

    Fredneck Member

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    Perhaps Tesla should buy some air time in the Superbowl and cite your post? "If you don't want to deal with half the features in the car being beta and not working very well, just don't buy a Tesla... and oh, yeah, don't ever complain about the poor service or support, we are putting you on notice that it sucks!"

    That would create a bunch of buzz, much like the broken truck windows.
     
  18. holmgang

    holmgang Active Member

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    I think the solution is for Tesla to go into the hairdryer business
     
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  19. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    It's almost like there's something wrong with YOUR specific car, not the overall system....


    .

    Dude... you just admitted the problem is not the feature, it's your specific car

    I agree there's bullshit here, but you're off a bit on where.


    100%

    Absolutely.

    Poor service is poor service- and your car should work as it's actually supposed to work. I don't disagree on that point AT ALL and probably the worst part of Tesla is their general incompetence as a "corporation" (communication, internal IT, service, etc).

    But none of that justifies blaming the feature set in general- that you admit works on the OTHER cars there.


    See here comes the bullshit you mentioned.

    your car is having these problems.

    But not everyone is.

    Relative to # of cars, very very few folks are having any of these problems.

    If "everyone" were Tesla would be out of business by now.

    Mine starts every time.

    Uh... that's a feature, not a problem. Put it in chill mode if you dislike this feature.

    Not sure I even understand this remark... most cars understeer from the factory because it's safer than oversteer as a failure mode. You can "fix" this with aftermarket suspension parts pretty easily but this isn't a thing that's "not working" at all so weird it's on this list.

    I've never had actual emergency braking engage with nothing in front of me. Ever.

    Nor ever seen TACC ever change to just dumb CC in any weather.

    I HAVE had advanced features become unavailable in really bad weather- not switch to regular CC. I am not aware that's even possible.

    The owners manual explicitly calls this out as a feature limitation (though having had the car over a year now I've seen behavior improve significantly for spots it loses line markings for a bit... though guessing at lane merge/sizing changes that are totally unmarked is a whole nother level of difficulty)


    These again appear to be issues specific to your car. I've experienced none of em....

    (though I rarely use summon as while it "works" it's very slow so not really worth bothering with at this stage).

    At all? Again- something wrong with your car.

    They work fine (for varying values of fine) depending on individual people and the weather they're having- and have gotten significantly better in the last year.

    They're not as good as the ones in my previous Lexus (which unlike Tesla used a rain sensor)- but they're mostly fine 95% of the time nowadays, and the occasional stalk-press seems to be fine the other 5%.

    Supposedly the new SW rolling out right now is a major upgrade to this too.

    Works on-ramp to off-ramp here in almost all locations I've ever used it... once in a while (much less often than at first launch) I get an "unsupported exit" type message for a specific spot- but often it's good to go with no intervention at all on my part for hundreds of miles at a time.

    (not sure what the speed remark is about- I've never seen a speed-related NoA message of any kind)


    Again issue sees specific to your, clearly-something-wrong-probably-the-modem, car.

    They didn't forget- AFAIK it's just air bladders so way to "remember" the setting.

    This is not unique to Tesla

    http://m.acura.com/pdf/owners/2018/NSX/2018_NSX_Personalized_Settings.pdf

    That's for a 2018 Acura NSX- a car that costs roughly three to five times more than any version of the Model 3.

    Again something wrong with your car.

    You don't have to stop the car to reboot the screen. In over a year of ownership I've had the screen crash twice, ever- and both times quickly and easily rebooted while driving.

    In fact having AP engaged while rebooting still continues to steer and apply TACC just fine (since they're run on a different computer than the screen is).

    Again you appear to have never read the actual manual.

    The manual repeatedly makes it clear around all driver aids that it's not infallible and you need to remain paying close attention to the road and what is around your vehicle.

    These same cautions exist on all driver aids from all car makers- again it's not unique to Tesla.


    Also if you frequently encounter ghost persons you should contact Dr. Venkman.

    Given you've explicitly told us Tesla said your car is not working properly- it's pretty obviously the first one.

    (also given all those tests I posted were all done in different scenarios by different testing organizations at different times-all of them finding Teslas driver aids significantly more capable than anyone elses- also suggest the problem is with your car specifically).


    I've got over 13,000 miles on my Model 3, probably 90% of that on autopilot... I've never had "ghost breaking"

    Occasionally it guesses wrong about what's up ahead and slows down when it probably doesn't need to- but there's always an obvious and visible reason it does it and it's pretty rare it happens at all.

    If you get it "every time" there's something wrong with your car.

    We already knew that though since Tesla specifically told you it's not working in places it should work.




    I mean, my post was literally in reply to someone discussing how Tesla compares to other car companies so it did seem like they felt it was important.



    Well, all available data shows it's objectively safer than not using it, so they're doing well there too.

    Most recent for example-

    In the 3rd quarter, Tesla registered one accident for every 4.34 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged.

    For those driving without Autopilot but with Tesla active safety features engaged, Tesla registered one accident for every 2.70 million miles driven.

    For those driving without Autopilot and without Tesla active safety features engaged, Tesla registered one accident for every 1.82 million miles driven.


    By comparison, NHTSA’s most recent data shows that in the United States there is an automobile crash every 498,000 miles across all models of vehicle.
     
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  20. Marius A

    Marius A Member

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    That is what I've been saying, but there are a lot of posts in this ridiculous thread where people say everyone are having these problems, and I should never get a Tesla if I can't live with it.
    I'm not sure if you mistook something, that post wasn't a response to you :)

    The list was all things both working and not working, that's why some of the items seemed confusing. Also, even though it's in the manual "this isn't working right now", waiting 8 months without improvement is reason to get annoyed. Btw, the lumbar support wasn't listed when I got my car. On my first service appointment they spent an hour debugging it with me, it was first when I got the car back a few days later that they told me it couldn't be saved to the profile. So not only did I not know, at least two technicians didn't know either. Probably because they also expected that feature to be there, seeing how its present in the S and X.

    If you never had ghost breaking then that means you have a much better TM3 than at least 66% of the people in that 2000+ owners study, who all cited ghost/phantom breaking as the most annoying part of AP. Try searching on YouTube, you'll find more than enough examples.

    The "ghost person" I was talking about was the car picking up a person on the road who wasn't there. I got some warning chimes and the illustration showing me running through someone. There wasn't anyone there in real life (luckily), but the car thought it was someone and it didn't touch the brakes.
     
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