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3.0 Battery Longevity

Discussion in 'Roadster 2008-2012' started by bolosky, Feb 14, 2017.

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  1. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    It appears that the range decline in my 3.0 battery is tapering off. I hope so if not it appears that the 3.0 gained me about 6 years of extra range.

    Range_Graph_1.JPG
     
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  2. thebabydoc

    thebabydoc Member

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    I'm seeing the same thing on mine... the CAC seems to have locked in around 193.5
     
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  3. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

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    About a year ago I picked up #613 which is a 2010 Roadster Sport with the 3.0 upgrade. I was the 2nd owner, and now again own it as the 4th owner (long story LOL) ---

    According to my records:
    3,422 miles at the time of the 3.0 upgrade
    7,995 miles currently on the car

    CAC was:
    198.1 Ah in July 2018, with a mileage of 6,363 mi
    185.x Ah now in May 2019, with a mileage of 7,995 mi

    It has been a hot minute since I pulled the logs, and the parser was not one that I dealt with easily. That said... I see more recent activity in this thread and it seems there is some good data pulled that allowed users to make charts. Would someone (looking at you @bolosky ) want me to email them the log so they can add it to the charts? Please advise... I'd really love to see the data.

    Really at this point I am just worried about long term battery health. Part of what made this car attractive to me as 2nd owner a year ago was the 3.0 battery, so I want to ensure I am doing what I can to maintain it healthily. At the moment I am back to standard charging it, but it did go through a bunch of Range charges (1,200 miles in 2018, and 850 miles in 2019) on some big road trips (I drove it from Florida to Ohio, and then from KC,MO to Ohio, both times I bought it haha)

    TIA for any help/thoughts on this-- and maybe a link to help me get the logs/emailed to whomever wants to spend time analyzing them!
     
  4. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    I was told an occasional Range charge is good for the 3.0 battery, or any lithium pack, as the range charge really helps with balancing. Definitely not a daily or even monthly occurrence but I do range charge on occasion. That said I have not been able to see any changes (good or bad) when I have range charged.
     
  5. bolosky

    bolosky Member

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    Range charging does at least two things for the 3.0 battery. One is that it balances better with a full charge than with a standard (80%) charge.

    The other is that the CAC algorithm gets better data, and will consistently increase the CAC estimate based on it. This is a much bigger effect. If you look at my car (670, the red line) in the charts I've published, you'll see several times where the CAC went up a bunch over a short period of time. Those were all doing several range charges in a row over several days.
     
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  6. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

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    Based on this, do you suggest a RANGE charge normally? Isn’t it bad to have the car sit at a SOC of 100% for a long time, though? I don’t drive the car daily but nowadays I’ll be driving it 4-5 times per week for sure— should I just range charge all the time? Is that better for the battery balance and CAC? Thoughts?

    Also — @bolosky I saw your PM — I’ll try to pull the logs off the car to email you sometime in the next night or two! Thanks...
     
  7. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    I doubt it. Once a month should be fine unless you need the range.
     
  8. MLAUTO

    MLAUTO Member

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    Range charging is NEVER better for the battery. The CAC will change, but that is just a calculation and has absolutely noting to do with the range or performance of the car. The car will shut down when one of the brick voltages reaches the minimum value, regardless of what the CAC is. Unless you have some weak cells, you just need to keep it plugged in to keep it balanced. It will top off the charge and start balancing daily. I'm still waiting for someone with a declining 3.0 pack to run it all the way down to see what the actual range is. That would determine if this situation is software or actually a battery cell problem.
     
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  9. slcasner

    slcasner Member

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    Didn't @bolosky already do that, with some potentially negative consequences?
     
  10. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    I did this and the car shut down after 345 miles. 10 miles short of home. The computer said I had 40 miles of range when in real-time had only 20
     
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  11. Roadster

    Roadster JdeMO Powered

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    :eek:

    Nice to know the advertised 300+ miles is not a myth! Thank you for your sacrifice @dhrivnak ;) BTW, what was your avg speed for that run?
     
  12. MLAUTO

    MLAUTO Member

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    What was your CAC at the time? It seems like a software issue for you.
     
  13. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

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    Put another ~250 miles on my 3.0 pack today (VIN#613) — car has over 8k miles now, of which more than half of that is on the R80 pack. One thing I’m trying to understand and found no data is this: “Max Range” Mode

    When I got in the car this morning it was charged to Standard mode 85% SOC and was showing ~203 miles. Before setting off, I tapped the green battery bar on the touch screen and noted that the “Max Range” moniker added ~30 miles of range to the total shown in ideal range miles. What was more disconcerting though is that the SOC jumps about 5%

    Today took me from Cleveland, Ohio, to Pittsburgh, PA and back. On my way home I flipped a few times between Standard (no white words on the battery bar) and Max Range mode, and noted the same thing. Close to home I was at 25% SOC based on the green bar, and going to Standard mode dropped it down to 20% SOC. Why is that? Is the car truly unlocking extra access to more of the battery?

    I’ve had my fair share of Tesla vehicles, but all of them are S/X/3 — and there is a Range mode there which clearly affects things like HVAC and accelerator peddle mapping. But the SOC doesnt ever change that I’m aware of in the Range mode. So why does going into MAX RANGE in the Roadster display a difference in SOC on the battery meter? Any info here is appreciated.

    FWIW — and to stay more on R80 topic — what is everyone else’s typical Standard (85% SOC) rated/ideal range displaying these days? It might be interesting to map CAC and Ideal Range at 85%/STD charge, eh?
     
  14. slcasner

    slcasner Member

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    The Roadster battery display changes its scale between standard mode and range mode. When in range mode the battery icon represents the full range of the state of charge, from completely full to the maximum discharge level that the car will allow. When the Roadster with the original battery was new, charging to full in standard mode would still show 100% (or close to it), but the actual fill level would be 10% below the maximum charge the battery could hold. If you switched to range mode you would see 90% on the battery icon. In addition, as you would drive down to the bottom of the battery, 0% on the icon would represent about 10% left compared to the maximum safe discharge level. That is, the battery icon is re-scaled so that in standard mode the full span of the icon is still used. I wish they had not done that; I would have preferred that they just do something like shading the top and bottom 10% of the icon to show that it was not being used.

    With the R80 battery the scale of the icon is still changed, but in standard mode the battery only charges up to 85% on the icon to be even more gentle on the battery than for the original one.

    My usual practice for road trips is to charge in range mode but then switch to standard mode as I drive, for two reasons:
    1. It avoids the reduced performance that range mode imposes.
    2. I don't want to stress the battery by using that bottom 10%.
    With this practice the icon in standard mode would be showing about 108% if it could extend past its right margin, but as I drive it comes back down into its normal span.
     
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  15. gregd

    gregd Active Member

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    What Steve said.

    I would add that, other than messing with how much of the battery you have access to (the top and bottom 10%) and how it's displayed, the only other real effect of driving in Range mode is that you're "limited" to 50% power to the drive train. In normal driving, this doesn't make a difference, but it's quite noticeable if you "punch it". The techniques used in the S/X/3 to extend range aren't used in the Roadster. Also note that settings for charging and driving are independently set for range vs standard mode. All 4 combinations are possible.
     
  16. arijaycomet

    arijaycomet Member

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    @gregd - that is what confused me at first. I understand/understood the 3 charge modes (storage, standard, range) — but then did not understand how those integrated into driving modes. Since the HVAC is manual in the Roadster, and I’m a big fan of just “modulating my own right foot” — I could not see the point of the “Max Range” mode—

    That said, now I get it. It sounds like it basically gives you access to 10% more of the battery. Which would obviously make sense on long trips if you need/want it. I’ve done a 1200+ mile and a 850+ mile trip in my 3.0 Battery Roadster, so I can tell you, every little drop counts when you’re traversing those distances. Having another 20-30 miles cab make/break travel in some parts of the country.

    But... eking out the top/bottom of the battery clearly isn’t probaly Good for CAC/battery life. I think what I did today they makes more sense. My trip to PGH from Ohio was done in Standard charge mode, but getting home I did end up going into Max Range mode.

    Question: clearly when you are in STD driving mode, and you think you only have 15% of battery life— you guys are saying you REALLY have 25% left. What happens when you run it down to < 5% of battery? Does it actually DRIVE for another 10% more “miles of range” after that? So in our case, a 3.0 pack that does ~300-330 miles, should actually be able to drive for 20-30 miles PAST 0% on the display, correct?
     
  17. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    I would say 50 mph. Lots of hills some spirited mountain runs. But for this never over 60.
     
  18. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    The 3.0 battery, or at least my 3.0 battery works much differently than my old battery. In range mode I get about 100 extra miles on the top end on charging. As soon as you are done charging you can change back to STD mode for full power. As Range mode also limits acceleration. But standard mode also limits the bottom 30 or so miles. When you get to 0 in standard mode I have had to switch into range mode. One frustration is that at about 25 miles it says battery is so low that range is undetermined. For some reason my car shut down early giving me 15 miles rather than the expected 30. Not sure if I have a problem or if the software still needed calibrated.
     
  19. gregd

    gregd Active Member

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    With the original battery, standard charging stops at about 83% of actual capacity, range charging at about 93%, and you can't go above that because it also turns off regen when it's that full. For the 3.0 battery, I expect those two numbers are going to be rather different. Battery cell balancing needs about 80% to start its work, so there was a discussion (as yet unresolved to my knowledge) what level standard charging gets you to on the 3.0 pack.

    The bottom end is important when driving. Standard mode seems to hide about 11% of the bottom on mine, which range mode lets you access. Below about 20%, I think, the 50% power reduction also kicks in. I believe there is just a little capacity below "0%" for "anti bricking" purposes, but based on reports, it's neither reliable nor effective, as the Roadster will self-brick if not attended to. I believe the newer cars are smarter about this, and go into a deep shutdown before the bricking level is reached. Again, the 3.0 pack is likely different on the % triggers, but I do not believe they changed the bricking behavior.
     
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  20. daniel

    daniel Active Member

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    I never drove mine below about 40% SoC. But my understanding is that in Standard mode, it would tell you you're out of charge when you got to 10% and would then ask you if you wanted to access that last 10%. I do remember there being a selection to access the bottom of the battery while in Standard mode. I don't think you can go to 10% without actively choosing that. I had the original battery. Never got the 3.0 battery because even the 188 miles of Standard range was more than I ever needed. I think I once drove 110 miles in one day, when the car was still new and I just took it out into the country for a cruise.

    I loved that car. Got the Model 3 for EAP and never looked back.
     

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