3.0 Battery Longevity

[Sparrow]

Just completed my first range charge in a long time. A few minutes after charging completed it settled down to 323 miles ideal. It got as high as 331 while charging. Better than I expected for my almost 3 1/2 year old 3.0 pack, but it does only have 8400 miles on the new pack.

 

[wycolo]

> Is he trying to have the lowest mileage Roadster ever? [JRP3]

Like seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time, or the Mona Lisa, 8 minutes is enough, certainly 20. Driving the perfect car you only really need enough joy to last another 3 months, so back in the garage it goes.
--

 

[drewski]

> Is he trying to have the lowest mileage Roadster ever? [JRP3]

Like seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time, or the Mona Lisa, 8 minutes is enough, certainly 20. Driving the perfect car you only really need enough joy to last another 3 months, so back in the garage it goes.
--

i spent 2 weeks rafting down the Grand Canyon and it wasn't enough . . . there's more than anyone can experience in just 8 minutes

i guess some people are more easily satiated than others . . .

 

[dpeilow]

Mine was one of the files sent in to @bolosky in October. Since then I have done one round trip to work in the car while the M3 was in for paint correction (a round trip drive of 2x40 miles) and my CAC has dropped again to 194.36. It seems every time I plug it in, let it balance and then take the car out for a short drive like that, I lose another CAC point.

 

[bolosky]

It's been about three months since the last update, and it looks like I'm going to get an interesting log that shows lots of use and very little degradation. So, I'm going to do another update. Anyone who wants to should send me logs in the next little while if you want them to be included in the next graph.

 

[thebabydoc]

Bill, where do i send to? I have sent before but get no responses from you.
BTW, my CAC seems to have not budged from 193 in like 6 months. Was at
Gruber for 3 months getting remanufactured PEM over the summer, though.
Doing a range charge now to see where it's at.

 

[dhrivnak]

I just did a 3.0 Range trip, and while a range charge is down to 307 miles, that is still much better than when new. I drove 241 miles, and I still had 63 miles left. I tried a hard acceleration, for just a short while and it still pulled hard enough to bring a smile to one's face.

 

[Gremlin]

I haven't received the full story yet.

I bought the BRA at purchase and my original battery died last summer. SC informed me the 3.0 would cost me $6k with BRA (as opposed to $29k). Now they've told me the new (3.5 as you say) upgrade is covered under BRA.
Unless they've found a way to drive down production cost, I don't see how this is possible.

I'll post information as I get it (maybe better to start a new forum thread on any new battery info)... right now, SC seems to be a better source than corporate.

Lithium battery prices have dropped from the high of 300 per gram to reportedly 120 per gram.

 

[Gremlin]

> Did they stop offering the Reman. 2.0 ESS? [DeedWest]

It would appear that you obtained the last Reman in captivity unless you can share knowledge to the contrary. TIA.
--

Used ESS from Gruber on eBay states 180 miles range.

 

[Gremlin]

I would not assume that. Earlier this year I had the opportunity to speak to a Tesla firmware engineer who has been with the company for over 10 years and wrote some of the firmware for the Roadster. He told me that the Roadster 3.0 battery was done as a "side project" with minimal resources and I got no indication from him that Roadster firmware was under continuing development.

That is not a criticism of Tesla, simply a statement of the reality that currently Tesla does not devote any resources to ongoing Roadster development. It is a model that ended production 6 years ago.

See above. In my opinion, and based on what I stated, no new features will be added, even minor things like being able to set the charge level beyond the 3 current choices.

So if you want to charge your Roadster to about 150 miles you have to manually stop the charging at that point.

Having read up on batteries extensively for the Model S 90D (second Tesla) in winter I charge it to 80-90. 90 (if in teens the later). In summer 70 percent to maintain health of the battery. So for by my calculation 70 percent from 340 is 238 miles. Agree on the 175-238 range. No reason to charge to 100 percent unless about to perform a road trip in 8 hours < or less.

 

[Gremlin]

I just got 6 months' more data for #425 (thanks, ecarfan!). It's interesting and a bit of an outlier. It's now the car with the largest number of days (460) and it's far above the CAC of comparably old cars, even #537, which has fewer miles. On the per-mile chart, it's been trending up (!) for the last roughly 2K miles. Even more interesting is that it's curve is remarkably similar to mine (#670) at the same mileage range. In fact, from about 5200 to the end, it's got all the same bumps as 670, although the climb at the end is much less. It's probably a coincidence, but it's remarkable nevertheless, and now I'm curious to see what happens to other cars in that range. I attributed that bump in my car to range charging it every day for a week as an experiment (and there's some evidence that 425 was also range charged when it started up because of longer drives and at least one time where the daily log shows 89% SOC.) Still, now I wonder if there was also something else going on. We'll find out with more data over the next few months, I assume.

I'll keep tweaking the 3D graph to see if I can make it look better. In the interim, here are the two older-style ones.

(BTW, I looked and I'm still at about 191 with several hundred miles more than is shown here. Maybe I'll update when I cross 20K.)
View attachment 253699 View attachment 253700

But anyway the 3.0 pack degrades way to quick. One should expect newer type cells like Model S chemistry which in NL shows model S cars with 200.000 km with just 7% degradation and 3 years old. This should be the degradation curve for the 3.0.[/QUOTE]

My models S is at 54K, has .05 percent degradation. I learned after having my first one. The only time I charge daily is when the ambient temperature is below 45 degrees. In the summer I charge to 70 percent top of the week, let car drop to 20 percent charge back unto 70 percent. I only charge to 90 when in the teens or about to do a road trip.

 

[Gremlin]

Yesterday I drove San Diego - Los Angeles and back on a single charge. Nominally it was 244 miles, but there were a couple of traffic detours in there that probably added a few miles. I got back with no trouble, but got the "cannot calculate" message at about 26 miles remaining (and about 5 miles to go to get home). I did the trip at 75-85 mph except when in traffic, although most of the time I was above 80 mph it was because I was slipstreaming behind some ugly truck .

Truckers hate that by the way (drafting).

 

[Gremlin]

An ex-insider told me that minimal changes were made to the firmware when the R80 battery was developed. That suggests to me that Mark's assumption is correct.

So then the question is, how does the range prediction progress over the course of the drive? I think we know that the number of ideal miles displayed at full is ratio of calculated Ah capacity to the original design Ah capacity times the original design ideal miles (340). Is the ideal range displayed during a drive simply based on starting with the number of ideal miles displayed after a range mode charge and then reducing that number according to the measured Ah discharge during the drive? If so, the prediction could be substantially wrong (in either direction) near the bottom. What triggers the display to switch to "cannot calculate range"? Could OVMS give us a better idea of how much range we have left by reporting the lowest brick voltage?

I have a meter on the wall and find that the kWh number displayed on the VDS when first turning on the car after a charge is within 1 of the measured value. Calculating the charging losses accurately is tricky, though.

Doing a bunch of range charges won't work for me because I don't drive enough. However, I do have an upcoming long trip where I can do four range charges over five days.

I agree that is scary, but again I ask what triggers the display to switch to "cannot calculate range"? I don't think it is just the point where standard mode would indicated zero miles because with the original battery there were one or two occasions where I was driving in standard mode and nearing zero so I switched to range mode. I don't recall every hitting the point where the car said it could not calculate the range. Could that message be displayed when the apparent remaining capacity (and therefore range) is greater than what the algorithm had been calculating, as well as when it might be less?

On long trips I charge in range mode but always switch to standard mode when driving so that performance is not limited if I need it. That means the VDS battery gauge is pegged at 100% for a while, but that's OK. I plan my charging stops so that I don't reach zero in standard mode.

Do you mean that the VDS displayed 20 miles but then the car suddenly died? Or did the VDS say it couldn't calculate but you thought you had 20 miles left because you had only driven, say, 50 miles from the point at which the VDS said 70? Also, if you went 375 miles without hypermiling, that's significantly more than 340.

I thought that 10% SOC is zero for standard mode, but again, I don't think the display is expected to change to "cannot calculate range" if you are in range mode at that point.

Being an IT geek the answer is pretty much straight forward to me. Install the current Model S / X / 3 LTE chipset to the car, add little program and memory to pull data from Tesla and use realtime calculations from the fleet cars. For clarity, weather, humidity, gps signal with new fleet algorithm . Or go cheap route, update Tesla app to include Roadster, update firmware based upon Model 3 long range use (probably users phone hooks into Roadster get data that way. My two cents.

 

[gregd]

The only time I charge daily is when the ambient temperature is below 45 degrees. In the summer I charge to 70 percent top of the week, let car drop to 20 percent charge back unto 70 percent. I only charge to 90 when in the teens or about to do a road trip.

Letting the battery drop to 20% before charging is operating in "ICE Mode". Conventional wisdom regarding Lithium-based batteries is to do exactly the opposite. Keep them charged to between 50% and 80%. Going higher is a stress, hence it's reserved for "Range mode" on the Roadster. Going lower than 20% is a stress as well, and overall the lower you are in SoC when you stomp on the accelerator the more stress you inflict. Low SoC is also a stress for the owner, because if the car isn't charged for whatever reason, when it hits zero the battery can easily get bricked.

So, keep the battery in that sweet range, and have fun. That means leaving the car plugged in, Standard charging mode, whenever it's not being driven.

 

[Gremlin]

I put down a $5k deposit a year ago, and roadster #618 has been at Tyco SC since Oct. awaiting PEM fan connectors. It doesn't seem like there's any progress being made. My main concern was bricking the battery as it sat unplugged for months. SC reps kept assuring me they wouldn't let that happen, but I was watching it via OVMS until battery reached 5% mid December, then they unplugged the OVMS. I didn't know about the $5k refund though.

Did you try Pete Gruber in AZ or Carl in Seattle?

I currently have it at FAT32, which is weird since it worked last time with no issues.

The error is just the VDS saying unable to save data to memory stick or something along those lines.

Are you using a Mac? New file structure is now used AFPS. Use Mac OS Journaled.

 

[Gremlin]

It's been about three months since the last update, and it looks like I'm going to get an interesting log that shows lots of use and very little degradation. So, I'm going to do another update. Anyone who wants to should send me logs in the next little while if you want them to be included in the next graph.

Bill, I'm considering purchasing #1353. Sorry for the delayed response, I've read all the 3.0 longenvity and 3.0 posts for research. My concern is the Roadster ESS degradation. My Model S has 54K miles with only 5 percent degradation. Took the car to Chicago, Martha's Vineyard, Bengals and the Browns stadiums, and Charleston, SC. So yes, I supercharge it plenty but still baby that battery . Learned from my first Model S as what NOT to do.

1353 is 2011 White 2.5 Roadster sport, that had the 3.0 ESS replacement on 5 Jul 17 (reference paperwork- no PII). It has 9k miles on it. The dealer informed me just this morning:

Hello again, range mode supplies a 221 mile range. Just got the numbers back.
Max charge would likely be 250-255.

Think he has it backwards.... but I'm not a Roadster owner only a 90D :- P
The dealer stated the owner said, "he just didn’t drive it enough, just purchased a new Bentley and that’s what he’s been driving. He said it just sat there and collected dust".
I asked the dealer to please charge in range mode to get beyond the 225 barrier, my understanding of taking notes, but not to got over a 90 percent charge (bad for the battery) and to send me a photo. Cutting to the chase, I plan to fly out sometime in February (non Super Bowl week) look at the car, grab the logs, test drive make decision on the spot. I saw your post #489, getting the logs, seems pretty straight forward. The car is off warranty this July. Any recommendations in getting a 3.0 car gang?

Parting shot... related to the delay in the new 3.5 ESS (not my coined name). Tesla is an automotive company, yet functions more as a DevOPS software company. Robots to assemble the cars, code and firmware in cars, OTA updates etc. The next push in my professional opinion: 1 FSD, 2. Model Y, 3. Roadster II and4 getting the new 1 million battery into the cars (end of 2020). My assumption is the Roadster II built upon the fleet data / lessons learned. When Tesla has the resources to update the firmware for the original roadster, which is a stand alone computer (not networked) outside of the Roadster II and Cybertruck (two Gigafactories - Shanghai just opened) and Panasonic battery strapped Tesla...we'll see the ESS 3.5. They were cash strapped until the last two quarters (profit) folks.

 

[drewski]

Bill, I'm considering purchasing #1353. Sorry for the delayed response, I've read all the 3.0 longenvity and 3.0 posts for research. My concern is the Roadster ESS degradation. My Model S has 54K miles with only 5 percent degradation. Took the car to Chicago, Martha's Vineyard, Bengals and the Browns stadiums, and Charleston, SC. So yes, I supercharge it plenty but still baby that battery . Learned from my first Model S as what NOT to do.

1353 is 2011 White 2.5 Roadster sport, that had the 3.0 ESS replacement on 5 Jul 17 (reference paperwork- no PII). It has 9k miles on it. The dealer informed me just this morning:

Hello again, range mode supplies a 221 mile range. Just got the numbers back.
Max charge would likely be 250-255.

Think he has it backwards.... but I'm not a Roadster owner only a 90D :- P
The dealer stated the owner said, "he just didn’t drive it enough, just purchased a new Bentley and that’s what he’s been driving. He said it just sat there and collected dust".
I asked the dealer to please charge in range mode to get beyond the 225 barrier, my understanding of taking notes, but not to got over a 90 percent charge (bad for the battery) and to send me a photo. Cutting to the chase, I plan to fly out sometime in February (non Super Bowl week) look at the car, grab the logs, test drive make decision on the spot. I saw your post #489, getting the logs, seems pretty straight forward. The car is off warranty this July. Any recommendations in getting a 3.0 car gang?

Parting shot... related to the delay in the new 3.5 ESS (not my coined name). Tesla is an automotive company, yet functions more as a DevOPS software company. Robots to assemble the cars, code and firmware in cars, OTA updates etc. The next push in my professional opinion: 1 FSD, 2. Model Y, 3. Roadster II and4 getting the new 1 million battery into the cars (end of 2020). My assumption is the Roadster II built upon the fleet data / lessons learned. When Tesla has the resources to update the firmware for the original roadster, which is a stand alone computer (not networked) outside of the Roadster II and Cybertruck (two Gigafactories - Shanghai just opened) and Panasonic battery strapped Tesla...we'll see the ESS 3.5. They were cash strapped until the last two quarters (profit) folks.

Must be STD charge ideal miles . . . .

220 range charge would be awful. Its about what my 140 CAC remanned 2.0 ESS is getting (217).

 

[backmost]

Did you try Pete Gruber in AZ or Carl in Seattle?

Are you using a Mac? New file structure is now used AFPS. Use Mac OS Journaled.

Yeah I have a MacBook, so just reformat the USB using MacOS Journaled?

 

[bolosky]

Bill, I'm considering purchasing #1353. Sorry for the delayed response, I've read all the 3.0 longenvity and 3.0 posts for research. My concern is the Roadster ESS degradation. My Model S has 54K miles with only 5 percent degradation. Took the car to Chicago, Martha's Vineyard, Bengals and the Browns stadiums, and Charleston, SC. So yes, I supercharge it plenty but still baby that battery . Learned from my first Model S as what NOT to do.

1353 is 2011 White 2.5 Roadster sport, that had the 3.0 ESS replacement on 5 Jul 17 (reference paperwork- no PII). It has 9k miles on it. The dealer informed me just this morning:

Hello again, range mode supplies a 221 mile range. Just got the numbers back.
Max charge would likely be 250-255.

Think he has it backwards.... but I'm not a Roadster owner only a 90D :- P
The dealer stated the owner said, "he just didn’t drive it enough, just purchased a new Bentley and that’s what he’s been driving. He said it just sat there and collected dust".
I asked the dealer to please charge in range mode to get beyond the 225 barrier, my understanding of taking notes, but not to got over a 90 percent charge (bad for the battery) and to send me a photo. Cutting to the chase, I plan to fly out sometime in February (non Super Bowl week) look at the car, grab the logs, test drive make decision on the spot. I saw your post #489, getting the logs, seems pretty straight forward. The car is off warranty this July. Any recommendations in getting a 3.0 car gang?

Parting shot... related to the delay in the new 3.5 ESS (not my coined name). Tesla is an automotive company, yet functions more as a DevOPS software company. Robots to assemble the cars, code and firmware in cars, OTA updates etc. The next push in my professional opinion: 1 FSD, 2. Model Y, 3. Roadster II and4 getting the new 1 million battery into the cars (end of 2020). My assumption is the Roadster II built upon the fleet data / lessons learned. When Tesla has the resources to update the firmware for the original roadster, which is a stand alone computer (not networked) outside of the Roadster II and Cybertruck (two Gigafactories - Shanghai just opened) and Panasonic battery strapped Tesla...we'll see the ESS 3.5. They were cash strapped until the last two quarters (profit) folks.

As someone else pointed out, 221 in range mode would be horrible. I'd expect a car with that age and mileage to have a CAC of 180-190, which would be much more like a standard charge of ~210. The Tesla guy probably just had no idea what he was doing and gave you the standard charge level. Range mode on a 3.0 Roadster winds up with about 100 miles more than standard mode. A 3.0 standard mode charge is about 80% SOC, and when in standard mode it hides the bottom 10% of the battery, so you get roughly 70% of the full capacity reported.

The pack will degrade. They pretty much all do (the only one that hasn't just hasn't been driven at all so the CAC algorithm hasn't been running to update it). If you drive it a lot, it will degrade a little faster (like mine has), but mostly it's just a factor of time. The cells they chose just aren't that great in terms of longevity. If you get a 3.0, just expect it.

That said, the rate of degradation does seem to be lower as the pack gets older. My pack lost about 15 Ah in the first 10K miles and about 25 in the next 45K (with about the same usage pattern).

 

[Gremlin]

Must be STD charge ideal miles . . . .

220 range charge would be awful. Its about what my 140 CAC remanned 2.0 ESS is getting (217).

Here the data dealer sent over. Sorry in the delay. See enclosed pictures for the information you were asking about.