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3 day old import P85D crashed while using TACC

Discussion in 'Model S' started by emir-t, May 8, 2015.

  1. emir-t

    emir-t Member

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    #1 emir-t, May 8, 2015
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
    Hi everyone, this is a terrible day and we aren't quite sure what to do so I wanted to ask TMC's opinion.

    We live in Turkey and we've decided to import a Model S to the country. There's this automotive dealership that imports Tesla's for people and when we've heard they were importing a P85D for themselves about 3 months ago, we decided to buy it from them. After lots of nights passed by sleep deprived because of excitement, finally the dealer took delivery of the P85D in NL, shipped it to Turkey, it cleared customs and we took delivery finally 3 days ago. It was one of the happiest days of my life. I managed to find an insurance company to insure the vehicle thankfully and all was clear.

    Today was going to be my first road trip. For those who wonder it was going to be from Mudanya/Bursa to Sarkoy/Tekirdag. I hit the road with 91% charge on the P85D's battery with me, my 2 year old son and my pregnant wife. Eager to try adaptive cruise control for the first time, I enabled it. It was working perfectly fine and we drove a 100km of the way with ACC only. Then when we were around Bandirma, the car decided not to recognise the car in front of me slowing down and stopping because of a red light but instead decided to accelerate. Cruise speed was set to 100km/h and around 50m left to collision I recognised the mistake, slammed the brakes, unfortunately to no avail. Airbags deployed, front of the car in ruins and my 3 day old P85D dream ended badly.

    This is a terrible thing and obviously not my mistake. The dealer who sold me the vehicle told me that Tesla called him immediately after the incident. Although 3G network of Tesla doesn't work in Turkey the car was connected to the internet by my phone's 3G hotspot. What should I to next? Thank god my wife and kids are alright but should I plan on suing Tesla? because this was Autopilot's mistake. The car came with 6.1 installed, I updated to 6.2 yesterday. I feel so lost I don't even know which court to sue since Tesla doesn't operate in Turkey just yet although the warranty is valid worldwide. There obviously aren't any service centres to take it.

    Here are the photos; - beware, of cringing -

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    Here's ACC working minutes before
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    IMG_2138.JPG

    Edit: Posting in the name of this vehicle's owner, not my car as this user. I have a Turkish Tesla website and I've made friends with him through there even before he bought it.
     
  2. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    I'm very sorry to learn about this. I hope there were no injuries to your family.

    Let me suggest that it's probably not a very good idea to begin conversations with Tesla with the threat of a law suit. I would advise that your first determine how they'll respond. There may be a real issue with the fact that you imported the car through an unauthroized middle man. I regret to say that if Tesla does not have stores or service in Turkey that could be a real problem and not give you much legal footing to stand on.
     
  3. Kristoffer Helle

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    #3 Kristoffer Helle, May 8, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2015
    save your money to another Tesla. You can never trust a computer. That's why we continue have self driving cars.
     
  4. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    I don't have Autopilot hardware, but the manual is pretty clear in specifying that you should not rely on ACC to bring you to a stop. While it might work, it's currently meant for at-speed cruising. These aren't self-driving cars yet, you do still need to pay attention to the road. It sucks that happened, but it's hard to place the blame solely on Tesla. You might have a hard time suing in a country where Tesla does not maintain a presence. I wonder how that works?
     
  5. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    He may be able to sue the dealer. He would be able to do so here, at least. Otherwise, his best bet is to sue Tesla in the US.

    But his lawsuit is likely to be fruitless. The ACC is intended to assist the driver, not replace him.
     
  6. gavine

    gavine Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast

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    I don't have AutoPilot on my car but I presume the delivery specialists are required to give an explanation to new owners on the fact that the driver is ultimately responsible when using AutoPilot. Buying from a middle-man is a problem because that guy probably didn't explain that like a Tesla delivery specialists would. Also, does the owner's manual explain this? Sorry for your situation and best of luck. I'm glad there were no injuries.
     
  7. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    You should not have been using ACC in an area that has red lights. It is meant an automated cruise control for freeways. Regardless, the driver is ALWAYS responsible for what the car does.
     
  8. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    Um, even without TACC, the collection detection and braking should have kicked in and prevented this crash. Not even a weird situation where the car in front gets out of the way and the car in front of that one is already stopped. This is pretty incredible. That said, I wouldn't start with threatening to sue Tesla. I'd be surprised if they didn't step up to fix this whether it be replacing the car or covering the increase in your insurance premiums.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Tesla should just remove the feature until it's ready. People are going to use it where there are controlled intersections regardless of the warnings buried in the manual. If Tesla really needs to enforce this, then they should use geo fencing to determine if you're on a highway or a city street and warn the user that the feature can't be enabled on non highway roads.
     
  9. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    Is it possible that the license plate position in the front interfered with the sensors?
     
  10. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    That feature is brand new, just releasing in 6.2. This is a grey-market vehicle without cell service. Will it auto-update? Is it running the latest version? Hard to say. You can also disable the feature on the touchscreen. If on the latest version, it may be that the dealership turned it off when playing around and it's still off. Or it may have simply not worked. Either way, it's another layer of protection, not something to be relied upon.
     
  11. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    For everyone saying that TACC is highway only (as it states in the manual), and the user is responsible for staying alert (as it states in the manual), you are correct.

    Nonetheless, during my test drive, my Tesla rep (I don't want to get anyone in trouble...) turned on TACC (we were in city driving, maybe 45mph?) and told me to watch what happens when we approach the car in front of us as it stopped for the red light... (I had my foot near the brake pedal, as I didn't trust the car...). Just something to think about.
     
  12. skilly

    skilly Member

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    Anchorman-2-quote-cruise-control.png

    I cant resist....
     
  13. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    Fairly certain this came up in a previous thread, but my understanding was that it was to minimize impact, not prevent a crash.

    To the OP, sorry for your accident...but I don't think you have much luck with a suit considering that you were using TACC improperly, and you didn't purchase the vehicle through the proper channels. Unfortunately, this is the risk you take when purchasing vehicles this way.

    Good luck to you.
     
  14. Laurent

    Laurent Member

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    +1

    I'm sorry for your loss and I'm glad no one was hurt but you are responsible for this accident.
     
  15. mikeash

    mikeash Active Member

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    I don't think there's anything wrong with using it on non-highway roads. Just stay alert and make sure it behaves.

    But that last part is key. It's NOT a substitute for the driver's attention. It's only an aid. If it doesn't stop quickly enough then you need to jump in and do it yourself. Thus you need to make sure you're paying sufficient attention to do that, and intervene early enough to stop before a collision occurs.

    To the OP: I'm really sorry this happened to you and I hope you can get everything resolved to your satisfaction. However, I don't see how this can be blamed on TACC. It's all up to the driver in the end.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My guess is that this language is there to prevent people from trying to rely on it, or from attempting to sue Tesla if it either fails or is otherwise unable to prevent the crash. I would bet that, when working properly in suitable conditions, it will stop you before you hit.

    That said, I am NOT volunteering my car to test that theory....
     
  16. morbot

    morbot Member

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    #16 morbot, May 8, 2015
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
    First off, sounds like everyone in your family is ok? At least you don't mention any injuries. If so, that is great news and something to be thankful for. Looks like the car did a very good job absorbing the impact and protecting you. I hope the people in the other car were ok too.

    There's a lot of international legalities in play here that probably none of us on this forum will be able to really navigate, so anything here is based on a lot of assumptions.

    Before you go straight into "lawsuit mode", I'd recommend reaching out to Tesla to see what they are willing to help you with. It doesn't hurt to talk to them. Between them & your insurance, you may be able to come to an acceptable outcome.

    I wouldn't recommend pursuing a legal option because I do not think you have a case, you would probably be found at fault. In the US, you would be found at fault for sure.

    As others have mentioned, the ACC is not autonomous. It is not meant to replace the driver. It is not meant to be used in "stop & go" traffic situations with signals... it's meant for cruising on open roads. To assist the driver. Ultimately, the driver is responsible for maintaining control of the car.
     
  17. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    Curious to know how the insurance company may respond. Likely they'll find the driver at fault, but if there is evidence of some sort of malfunction, they may take it upon themselves to go after the manufacturer, dealer or importer in order to recoup some or all of their costs.
     
  18. ggr

    ggr Roadster R80 537, SigS P85 29

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    You say that the car in front "slowed and stopped" for the red light. But how far behind it were you? Was the cruise control maintaining distance behind it before it started to slow, or was it in the distance? It is a known "feature" of the TACC that it ignores stationary objects that come into range, because they don't count as "traffic", otherwise every parked car or power pole would have it jamming on the brakes.

    I still don't know why the collision detection didn't kick in anyway, though.

    Anyway, sorry for your loss, hope everyone is OK.
     
  19. RAM_Eh

    RAM_Eh Member

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    I would not go off saying your going to sue someone. Someone else on the forum has stated this and he was cut off from Tesla. Had to do everything through the lawyers afterwards. Not going to get any help from them if you do.
     
  20. nevadacitydude

    nevadacitydude New Member

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    Have your insurance fix it or replace it and move on. Leave Tesla alone. It's quite probable it was driver error.
     

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