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3 day old import P85D crashed while using TACC

Krrphx

Member
Aug 14, 2014
19
0
Frisco, TX
It also probably doesn't help that you've posted pictures you've taken of the dash with your cell phone from the driver's seat while the car is in motion...
 

sitter_k

Active Member
Jun 23, 2014
1,032
513
Toronto (GTA)
Hey in a world where you can sue Mcd's and win for coffee being too hot, go for it. I don't think you have a case, you'd probably have to sue them in the US too which will be even more costly I'm sure.

Yes and as others have said don't lead with "I'm going to sue you"
 

emir-t

Member
Oct 28, 2013
452
527
Istanbul
How do I edit the title? The owner wants to remove suing part as people figured it was a bad idea. This is a very very bad day for us, you can understand the frustration coming from it. We should seek logical advice and help from anyone instead of being all so offensive.
 

Tampaukfan

Member
Mar 6, 2015
265
57
Tampa, Fl
You dont have a prayer if you file a lawsuit.. I have owned 3 cars (mercedes , Audi) and NONE of them including my Tesla work/worked 100% perfect with ACC.
You have to pay attention when driving, none of these systems were meant to just ignore what the car is doing.
Based on your impact Id say you were moving very fast, didnt you think to apply the brakes as that car got closer? When I use ACC in traffic my foot hovers over the brake pedal...
 

Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,477
9,589
Drammen, Norway
Sorry to hear about your accident Emir! Glad everyone's OK. That's really all that matters, believe me. Your wife being pregnant and a 3-year old in the car, made me choke as I read it. But really the only thing that got hurt here was steel, aluminum and glass. And your wallet, right?

That said I hope you will work together with Tesla to resolve this. I hope you will cooperate in reconstructing the accident, from your experience. Then if there's telemetric data in the car or on Tesla's servers they could see it from the car's perspective. These real world incidents is super important for the designers of such a system - the only way to perfect it. If you contact them with this attitude I'm 100% sure that Tesla will:
1) Get you in a new P85D, courtesy of Tesla
2) Set up a team of several people to examine what has happened, since as I said, there's some very valuable and important info and data to be collected here.

Try contacting Jerome Guillen directly, but with the tone and approach I suggested above. He will be on this within 24 hours. His mail address is simply Jerome (at) teslamotors .dot. com

Good luck!
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,198
13,846
San Mateo, CA
3 day old import P85D crash because of ACC. Will sue Tesla

Did you real the manual before driving the car? TACC is intended for open highway cruising. It is NOT intended for roads with stop signs, stop signals, and cross traffic.

You didn't buy the car from Tesla. Did the importer you bought the car from explain how to use the TACC? Whether they did or not, it is your responsibility to operate the car according to the manufacturer's instructions as detailed in the manual.

I am glad to hear there were no injuries.
 

supratachophobia

Active Member
Sep 24, 2014
3,850
2,678
Columbus, Ohio
Curious to know how the insurance company may respond. Likely they'll find the driver at fault, but if there is evidence of some sort of malfunction, they may take it upon themselves to go after the manufacturer, dealer or importer in order to recoup some or all of their costs.

Probably not very well considering he is taking pictures of the dash while his car is flying down the road....
 

supratachophobia

Active Member
Sep 24, 2014
3,850
2,678
Columbus, Ohio
Hey in a world where you can sue Mcd's and win for coffee being too hot, go for it. I don't think you have a case, you'd probably have to sue them in the US too which will be even more costly I'm sure.

Yes and as others have said don't lead with "I'm going to sue you"


No one realizes that was actually a legitimate lawsuit. McDonald's was giving coffee to customers that was almost 180 F’ when it should have been more close to 120-130 F'.

- - - Updated - - -

You dont have a prayer if you file a lawsuit.. I have owned 3 cars (mercedes , Audi) and NONE of them including my Tesla work/worked 100% perfect with ACC.
You have to pay attention when driving, none of these systems were meant to just ignore what the car is doing.
Based on your impact Id say you were moving very fast, didnt you think to apply the brakes as that car got closer? When I use ACC in traffic my foot hovers over the brake pedal...

I hope he does sue in the US so we start having legal precedent that despite all these features, the driver is still responsible for operating/overseeing the operation of the car.
 

Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,477
9,589
Drammen, Norway
No one realizes that was actually a legitimate lawsuit. McDonald's was giving coffee to customers that was almost 180 F’ when it should have been more close to 120-130 F'.

"The case was said by some to be an example of frivolous litigation;[SUP][4][/SUP] ABC News called the case "the poster child of excessive lawsuits",[SUP][5][/SUP] while the legal scholar Jonathan Turley argued that the claim was "a meaningful and worthy lawsuit".
 

Max*

Charging
Apr 8, 2015
6,670
3,719
NoVa
No one realizes that was actually a legitimate lawsuit. McDonald's was giving coffee to customers that was almost 180 F’ when it should have been more close to 120-130 F'.

AND they were warned several times already to reduce the temperature, and they did not. IIRC.

AND the woman needed some surgery on her thighs, grafts? or something. It was a pretty severe burn.
 

kaiserpathos

Member
Mar 12, 2015
86
36
Dallas, TX
My wife has a 2015 CR-V Touring with "lane-sensing" and steering & ACC (2015 CR-V - Honda Sensing - Official Site) and the first second we left the lot what did we do? We jumped on the highway and played with the features, learning the limits of this new technology. Good thing, too, because we learned quickly how using it on anything under 45-50mph on regular curving roads is not what the system was intended for. Autopilot on this software-rev is similar: it's there for highway "City-to-city" driving, but not yet for slower roads and urban traffic situations.

On the highway, it's fun watching the steering wheel make minute adjustments to hold the lane, while the cars slow down when other cars change lanes to be in front of you. Maybe it inspires confidence because it is amazing, but off-highway?! No way. In that scenario ACC and lane-holding are no match for a car that was just in front of you driving into a curving road. The car in front of you could appear to suddenly be "gone" if the curve puts that car into the edge of your car's front radar sensing-range. So your car pulls into into the road's curve and speeds up because the other car "disappeared" to your car's radar. In reality the other car is simply further into the arc of the road's curve...then the road straightens and suddenly the car that was "gone" was there all-along, and is now braking hard leaving no room for your car's system to fully-stop. Impact. All a car can do in that situation, without driver-attention and driver-intent, is to minimize injury by via collision mitigation/braking system. Which is what yours did.

Autopilot is likely a bit more advanced than our CR-V's system and has road-arc handling-code in it, but ACC and auto-steering is no substitute for staying engaged with the car as it drives no matter whether we're driving a Honda or a Tesla.

+1 on the consensus: work to get through the insurance burn, which will pay the car off, and regroup and try again. I don't think immediately suing Tesla, so near-in-time to the first day of ownership, is going to will get very far in most courts. I do feel bad for your loss, but you're all ok and can drive a Model S again someday.
 
Last edited:

supratachophobia

Active Member
Sep 24, 2014
3,850
2,678
Columbus, Ohio
Sorry to hear about your accident Emir! Glad everyone's OK. That's really all that matters, believe me. Your wife being pregnant and a 3-year old in the car, made me choke as I read it. But really the only thing that got hurt here was steel, aluminum and glass. And your wallet, right?

That said I hope you will work together with Tesla to resolve this. I hope you will cooperate in reconstructing the accident, from your experience. Then if there's telemetric data in the car or on Tesla's servers they could see it from the car's perspective. These real world incidents is super important for the designers of such a system - the only way to perfect it. If you contact them with this attitude I'm 100% sure that Tesla will:
1) Get you in a new P85D, courtesy of Tesla
2) Set up a team of several people to examine what has happened, since as I said, there's some very valuable and important info and data to be collected here.

Try contacting Jerome Guillen directly, but with the tone and approach I suggested above. He will be on this within 24 hours. His mail address is simply Jerome (at) teslamotors .dot. com

Good luck!

+1 for the attitude suggestion. And a big +1 for Tesla learning from his telemetry and making improvements. However, for the sake of the stock price and the future success of Tesla, they better not be giving away P85D's as a courtesy every time someone wrecks one.
 

AMPUP

Member
Mar 27, 2014
638
227
Dunn Loring, VA
3 day old import P85D crash because of ACC. Will sue Tesla

Suing Tesla will cost you more money... You cannot win. Your family is safe and you are probably emotional right now, take stock of the situation over the next few days. Importing a car that has no service in a country unsupported is risky, if it were an ice then you would probably be ok getting service and support, but a Tesla No. Way! It's the risk you took and I assume you knew that.

Everyone else has nailed it, basically, the tech isn't there to replace a driver, not yet....

How did you get insurance for this car, when it's not a car supported in Turkey?
 

Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,477
9,589
Drammen, Norway
+1 for the attitude suggestion. And a big +1 for Tesla learning from his telemetry and making improvements. However, for the sake of the stock price and the future success of Tesla, they better not be giving away P85D's as a courtesy every time someone wrecks one.

I know they won't give him a new car but I just think it's the best cause of action. And the best way to act (morally, ethically) often turns out to be the most financially satisfying in the end, as a kicker. If you don't focus on the money but rather at what's really the right thing to do, in the end it often turns out the most lucrative too, often by some twist of fate that was impossible to foresee.

Don't go after the money, but do the right thing and the money will come after you.
 

omarsultan

Active Member
Jun 22, 2013
2,318
4,688
Northern California
Sorry to hear about the accident, but it seems like your family is unhurt, which is really all that matters. As others have said, you are better of trying to work with Tesla then threatening to sue, but I am also guessing they will take a dim view of dealing with a grey market car.

As far as the lawsuit goes, these are the warnings that start off the TACC section of the owner's manual:

Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is for guidance purposes only and is not a collision warning or avoidance system. It is the driver's responsibility to stay alert, drive safely, and be in control of the vehicle at all times. Failure to do so can result in serious injury or death.
Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on city streets due to inevitably changing traffic conditions and the presence of bicycles and pedestrians.
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control has limited ability to detect vehicles merging into your lane at close distances.
Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on winding roads with sharp curves. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not adapt driving speed based on road conditions.
Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on icy or slippery road surfaces, or when weather conditions (such as heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.) make it unsuitable to drive at a consistent speed. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not adapt driving speed based on road and driving conditions.
 

emir-t

Member
Oct 28, 2013
452
527
Istanbul
Thanks everyone for giving sound advice as it appears that we were caught in the heat of the moment. We are trying to calm down and think reasonably. It's late now and not much to do, we should sleep on it and act next week. Again, I'm posting these in the name of the vehicle owner who happens to be my friend, unfortunately I can't afford a Tesla, no way.

We should contact Tesla as this would be an interesting case for them too and the fact that they called the importer right after the accident is a bit weird.

Leaving all things aside, how would one go about sending the car back to a Tesla service country again and repairing it? Should we just ship it to the NL and send the invoice to the insurance company? How would the legality of the things go as in customs etc?

I will add the vehicle owners' comments and keep this thread updated. Suing things weren't a threat but just the owner being caught in the heat of the moment and rightfully so.
 

Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,477
9,589
Drammen, Norway
Sorry to hear about the accident, but it seems like your family is unhurt, which is really all that matters. As others have said, you are better of trying to work with Tesla then threatening to sue, but I am also guessing they will take a dim view of dealing with a grey market car.

Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is for guidance purposes only and is not a collision warning or avoidance system. It is the driver's responsibility to stay alert, drive safely, and be in control of the vehicle at all times. Failure to do so can result in serious injury or death.
Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on city streets due to inevitably changing traffic conditions and the presence of bicycles and pedestrians.
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control has limited ability to detect vehicles merging into your lane at close distances.
Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on winding roads with sharp curves. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not adapt driving speed based on road conditions.
Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on icy or slippery road surfaces, or when weather conditions (such as heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.) make it unsuitable to drive at a consistent speed. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not adapt driving speed based on road and driving conditions.

As far as the lawsuit goes, these are the warnings that start off the TACC section of the owner's manual:

So as far as law suit goes - forget it. Work with them.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks everyone for giving sound advice as it appears that we were caught in the heat of the moment. We are trying to calm down and think reasonably. It's late now and not much to do, we should sleep on it and act next week. Again, I'm posting these in the name of the vehicle owner who happens to be my friend, unfortunately I can't afford a Tesla, no way.

We should contact Tesla as this would be an interesting case for them too and the fact that they called the importer right after the accident is a bit weird.

Leaving all things aside, how would one go about sending the car back to a Tesla service country again and repairing it? Should we just ship it to the NL and send the invoice to the insurance company? How would the legality of the things go as in customs etc?

I will add the vehicle owners' comments and keep this thread updated. Suing things weren't a threat but just the owner being caught in the heat of the moment and rightfully so.

Nice of you assisting your friend. Yes, you should contact Tesla and seek cooperation, not conflict. The insurance company will arrange for how and wear the car is repaired, if it is in repairable condition. The will also handle the legalities associated with this.
 

morbot

Member
Oct 20, 2014
212
8
Seattle
Hey in a world where you can sue Mcd's and win for coffee being too hot, go for it.
This is a bit off topic, but ever since learning more about this case it's kinda frustrating to see people still reference it as an example of a frivolous lawsuit. While the "hot coffee" lawsuit was roundly mocked in the news and media (because honestly, it sounds silly!) the elderly woman was very seriously injured. The coffee was at a temperature to cause third degree burns in as little as two seconds of exposure to skin. Serving coffee at that temperature in a cup with a flimsy clip on lid was just not a good idea.

If you're got a strong stomach, Google Image Search "mcdonalds coffee burn" (warning: Not Safe for Work/Life - Graphic/Disturbing Images) and then see if you still think its a ridiculous lawsuit. Also keep in mind, the woman tried to settle for just $20,000 to cover only her medical bills and the time off her daughters took from work. Mcd's counter offered with $800. When it was all said and done, the settlement was somewhere around/under $600,000.

Sounds like a big settlement, but given the option of $600,000 or having the skin melted off my thighs & groin... I'd keep my skin.
 

stevejust

T E S L A x (≡)
Feb 15, 2010
171
164
Dallas, TX
Hey in a world where you can sue Mcd's and win for coffee being too hot, go for it. I don't think you have a case, you'd probably have to sue them in the US too which will be even more costly I'm sure.

Yes and as others have said don't lead with "I'm going to sue you"

I get really upset with this perception. What if you were on the jury in that case, and you heard McDonald's own expert testify that the coffee was so hot, that had Stella Liebeck been able to swallow it, it would have swollen her esophagus shut and she would have died? Everyone knows coffee is hot. But that's more than hot -- that's ridiculous.

If you have any interest in what really went down whatsoever, I recommend watching HOT COFFEE, a documentary feature film
 

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