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3-phase 32 amp recharge for model S with dual chargers
- Thread starter Bairaktaris
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- Australia New Zealand
Gabz
Member
there are 3 phase type 2 evse installed in Perth, Brisbane, Melbourne and Canberra. (many are ex betterplace.)
Yep, I think the OP was talking specifically about Tesla HPWC units though. I'd be interested to hear if anyone gets their Model S charging from a Better Place unit though!
Gabz
Member
yes but steve wests isn't a tesla HPWC tesla don't have any 3phase HPWC yet. and all the euro HPWC are is a type 2 EVSE with a button to open the charge port hatch.
I have been told that they expect to have these available early 2015. I assume they have to go through the approval process.
We are still waiting for single-phase wall chargers to be replaced with three-phase in Hong Kong (those of us with dual chargers). I have already tried a third party 3 phase Mennekes type-2 charger, and I get 95 km/h charging rate (about 22.4 kW average). This is the fastest possible AC charging on the Model S (requires dual chargers), next best thing to superchargers (Just over 3 hours for a full charge of 85 kWh).
I have dual chargers and have asked that Tesla replace my temporary wall connector with a 3 phase when available.
No firm dates for When the 3 phase wall connector will arrive but I get the impression 2nd quarter 2015.
No firm dates for When the 3 phase wall connector will arrive but I get the impression 2nd quarter 2015.
JOH
Member
I was told at launch that they expect to have 3 Phase HPWC by the time my car arrives (early March), thus they are holding off sending.
Dborn
Confirmed
My understanding bis tha t we will have our units swapped once 3 phase becomes available. That is, if you bought dual chargers. In the alternative they will supply single phase 80 amp, your choice!
timpoo
Member
Unfortunately I didn't get Dual Chargers, and I think my house would have a heart attack if I tried 80 amp single phase
Gabz
Member
I don't think an 80amp single phase charger will be approved in Australia. and if it is it won't take long before its banned.
Phase imbalance on the transformers make life harder on network operators.
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I am sticking with the single phase ESVE.
I was forced to convert our Sydney house to three phase power because I am enlarging the solar array to over 7 kW, and over 5 kW of solar forces the change to 3 phase in Ausgrid territory. If you are putting storage on the house, the required inverter/charger for managing storage with three phases is over $20000 instead of about $7000 for a single phase. In this situation, if you don't have solar panels on every phase, a three phase charger will always use a proportion of grid energy in daytime to charge the car. If you put panels on all three phases you need a solar inverter on each. But if you already have a 60 cent FIT, you can't add another array to that phase until 2017. So I have had to put my new panels on a different phase.
So my workaround is to have my existing 3.7 gross metered FIT array on its own feeding the grid as one phase, my new net metered 3.6 kW array on a second phase with practically the whole house load+single phase inverter charger" battery storage, and the third phase totally on grid with the single phase ESVE and the ev(s) and winter reverse cycle heating (a big load). Up to 2017, I will use the mobile car charger to mop up any extra on the second phase, maximising self usage, especially useful with a second smaller EV in the future.
After the FIT expires end of 2016, the subarray on phase 1 becomes net metered. I will then move the single phase ESVE to that phase to supply the car charging and a few some other daytime applications. The rest of the house stays on the second phase with the battery storage. The third phase is now just winter heating. So about half the PV will end up dedicated to house with storage and half to EVs, which have their own storage. The third phase will be for winter heating, which is balanced by excess solar sales to the grid during warmer months.
The upshot is that a single phase ESVE works best with this workaround, so I will not go to a three phase ESVE on that house. I have no trouble charging with single phase ESVE anyway.
All of this complication is necessary because of Ausgrid rules about 5 kW, which I think are technically unnecessary. Effectively it incurs an upgrade cost of $3k, an extra inverter/charger cost ($20K -$7K = $14K) and extra solar inverter installation costs for spreading the array over three phases. This substantially increases the cost of the system. Hence the need for a workaround. A single phase PV installation of 7 kWp should be technically sufficient for most homes for house and car. That would have been very simple, but if that becomes possible, then the single phase ESVE is used for the car.
One interesting point; I asked Tesla if the three phase charger can be used on two phases, if you have PV arrays on two phases, as I will. The Tesla tech guys in Palo Alto tested it for me and said it worked but the charge rate indicator on the car was no longer accurate. I have decided that I will NOT try that now, but may try it in 2017 as an experiment on our second house, which came with 3 phase electricity. However, basically I would like to see the 5kW limit changed to 32A max, as this would allow most houses a cheaper solar installation and the chance to be annually energy neutral.
Sorry about the complex explanation.
I was forced to convert our Sydney house to three phase power because I am enlarging the solar array to over 7 kW, and over 5 kW of solar forces the change to 3 phase in Ausgrid territory. If you are putting storage on the house, the required inverter/charger for managing storage with three phases is over $20000 instead of about $7000 for a single phase. In this situation, if you don't have solar panels on every phase, a three phase charger will always use a proportion of grid energy in daytime to charge the car. If you put panels on all three phases you need a solar inverter on each. But if you already have a 60 cent FIT, you can't add another array to that phase until 2017. So I have had to put my new panels on a different phase.
So my workaround is to have my existing 3.7 gross metered FIT array on its own feeding the grid as one phase, my new net metered 3.6 kW array on a second phase with practically the whole house load+single phase inverter charger" battery storage, and the third phase totally on grid with the single phase ESVE and the ev(s) and winter reverse cycle heating (a big load). Up to 2017, I will use the mobile car charger to mop up any extra on the second phase, maximising self usage, especially useful with a second smaller EV in the future.
After the FIT expires end of 2016, the subarray on phase 1 becomes net metered. I will then move the single phase ESVE to that phase to supply the car charging and a few some other daytime applications. The rest of the house stays on the second phase with the battery storage. The third phase is now just winter heating. So about half the PV will end up dedicated to house with storage and half to EVs, which have their own storage. The third phase will be for winter heating, which is balanced by excess solar sales to the grid during warmer months.
The upshot is that a single phase ESVE works best with this workaround, so I will not go to a three phase ESVE on that house. I have no trouble charging with single phase ESVE anyway.
All of this complication is necessary because of Ausgrid rules about 5 kW, which I think are technically unnecessary. Effectively it incurs an upgrade cost of $3k, an extra inverter/charger cost ($20K -$7K = $14K) and extra solar inverter installation costs for spreading the array over three phases. This substantially increases the cost of the system. Hence the need for a workaround. A single phase PV installation of 7 kWp should be technically sufficient for most homes for house and car. That would have been very simple, but if that becomes possible, then the single phase ESVE is used for the car.
One interesting point; I asked Tesla if the three phase charger can be used on two phases, if you have PV arrays on two phases, as I will. The Tesla tech guys in Palo Alto tested it for me and said it worked but the charge rate indicator on the car was no longer accurate. I have decided that I will NOT try that now, but may try it in 2017 as an experiment on our second house, which came with 3 phase electricity. However, basically I would like to see the 5kW limit changed to 32A max, as this would allow most houses a cheaper solar installation and the chance to be annually energy neutral.
Sorry about the complex explanation.
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Gabz
Member
won't they switch you to polyphase metering. (e3 is the ausgrid term) I think and it won't make any difference ?
Mark E
Member
If you are installing a new system then the best option is to use micro inverters. These have dropped dramatically in price and have the added benefit of isolating each panel from shading issues. Effectively each panel gets its own inverter, so splitting the installation across phases wouldn't be much of an issue. If I were installing my system today (4kW of panels with a 3.3kW inverter), I'd go for micro inverters. In winter time I have a tree that shades some of the panels and that dramatically reduces output - the whole string suffers. With micro inverters only the shaded panels would drop.
Not quite right -- the current for a solar array in series is limited by the current for the highest performing panel (to an approximation -- the MPPT/Inverter will drop the current back to the right level to get the maximum power possible out of the array if it's doing its job correctly).
Moving to micro-inverters means you are minimising the number of cells in series, and therefore the effect that shading will have. More inverters means that your cells are spread between more trackers. Micro-inverters are a good plan, and have been getting more traction these days. Not to mention that you can have very short DC runs which eases the installation.
Has anyone looked at direct charging the Model S from a PV array? I am keen to know as I have asked previously but Tesla has not provided a response. The only answer I get is just conenct your solar to the grid and draw back off the grid.
However in my case, my 4kW PV array is grid connected and delivering $0.50 per Kwh under the ACT feed-in tariff. Since I work from home I would like to put another array on my house and use this to directly charge the car (either via an inverter) or maybe even direct DC. Obviously there are lots of issues with panel shading, cloud cover etc that will cause varying output levels to the car. I wonder how the on-board chargers on the Model S would cope with this, or should we put a cut-out device maybe around the 1kwh level that stops the charge going to the car below this level?
Open to any ideas here. Thanks.
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