3 vs. S -- Your Thoughts on Smaller Crumple Zone?

[ForeverFree]

Love my wife. Want to keep her around a while.

Tried to talk her into an S, like mine. Probably the safest non-SUV out there. She opted instead for the 3, said she wanted something smaller, easier to park, etc. Couldn't be talked out of it.

Trouble is, I've now driven her 3 ... a lot (my wife's a good sport). Handles nothing like I've ever driven before. Absolute blast.

Have a second configurable M3 reservation in hand. Very tempting to jump on it as soon as AWD becomes available (we need at least one AWD car for snow). Would be roughly a zero-dollar move from my 2015 S85D.

The troubling thought, as with her decision, is safety. Obviously, MS has a mass advantage in a collision. And, given the cab-forward design of the 3, the S also has a decidedly longer crumple zone (6-8 inches longer from nose to steering wheel, by my measure).

I'm confident that Elon has delivered a car which will earn 5 stars ... in its size category. And, the recent headfirst plow of a 3 into a light pole turned out encouragingly well.

And, yet. And, yet ...

Your thoughts, please.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Model 3 LR weighs around 3800 lbs., or 600 lbs. more than the current Honda Accord 4-cylinder, and 400 lbs. more than a CR-V AWD. From a mass perspective, Model 3, is not a small car and would not typically be at a significant disadvantage in car-to-car collisions.

Everything involves trade offs. Personally, I like nimble handling cars and would take the Model 3 over the Model S at the expense of what I think is marginal difference in safety.

However, since you have doubts, I’d say keep your Model S for now. It’s still a great car. In the near future there should be crash test data available from NHTSA and hopefully IIHS as well. In 2-3 years we should know more about how the car performs in real life collisions. Once there’s a fuller safety picture you can make a decision without any doubts.

 

[03DSG]

Looks like it did it’s job beautifully as advertised in this case:

 

[McRat]

Any car sold today is pretty safe. The major risk of injury is not the car, it's the cellphone inside the car. No amount of safety equipment can protect you from it.

 

[widodh]

Additional mass in a accident isn't always a good thing. Having less kinetic energy in a collision is usually better for the total outcome.

Also, Model 3 weighs less, so the crumple zone needs to absorb less energy thus it can be shorter.

I'm not a expert, but saying that a bigger car is safer just isn't true. There are more variables that have to be kept in mind than just the size of a vehicle.

 

[mongo]

Love my wife. Want to keep her around a while.

Tried to talk her into an S, like mine. Probably the safest non-SUV out there. She opted instead for the 3, said she wanted something smaller, easier to park, etc. Couldn't be talked out of it.

Trouble is, I've now driven her 3 ... a lot (my wife's a good sport). Handles nothing like I've ever driven before. Absolute blast.

Have a second configurable M3 reservation in hand. Very tempting to jump on it as soon as AWD becomes available (we need at least one AWD car for snow). Would be roughly a zero-dollar move from my 2015 S85D.

The troubling thought, as with her decision, is safety. Obviously, MS has a mass advantage in a collision. And, given the cab-forward design of the 3, the S also has a decidedly longer crumple zone (6-8 inches longer from nose to steering wheel, by my measure).

I'm confident that Elon has delivered a car which will earn 5 stars ... in its size category. And, the recent headfirst plow of a 3 into a light pole turned out encouragingly well.

And, yet. And, yet ...

Your thoughts, please.

Less crumple zone implies a higher deceleration needed to prevent cabin intrusion for a given force level (how far that number is from the force that would cause injury is unknown). However, a lower mass vehicle can be stopped with less crumple zone (force dissipated as deformation). For S/X/3, the pack is a solid last line of defense for the cabin that goes a long way toward protecting the passengers.

It was interesting to watch frontal offset test videos. Many of the car that were rated highly bounced off/ spun around the barrier instead of absorbing the full impact. The 3's pack has angled corners which should perform better in that test than the S's squared off ones.

@widodh You type faster than I do

 

[LCR1]

Ya'll realize the smart car has a 4 star rating, right?

 

[DR61]

Chances of dying in a car crash are about 1 in 10,000; probably much less for cars designed in the last 5-10 years. Good design, prudent driving behavior, and other precautions are great but adding mass and size to a vehicle for the sole purpose of surviving an extremely low likelihood event is folly in my opinion.

 

[DFibRL8R]

Additional mass in a accident isn't always a good thing. Having less kinetic energy in a collision is usually better for the total outcome.

Also, Model 3 weighs less, so the crumple zone needs to absorb less energy thus it can be shorter.

I'm not a expert, but saying that a bigger car is safer just isn't true. There are more variables that have to be kept in mind than just the size of a vehicle.

True, additional mass isn't always a good thing but it is in the majority of collisions especially the most deadly types. Picture an extreme example of a speeding train hitting a smart car. The fact of the matter is we share the roads with some very heavy, tall, large vehicles that can overwhelm the best engineering of a smaller vehicle with shear mass and size.

Here's a nice link to IIHS statistics which provides a lot of detail on the various fatal collision types and breaks it down by vehicle size and type. Looking over the actual numbers, there is a consistent pattern that the smaller vehicles have higher fatalities.

Fatality Facts

 

[DFibRL8R]

Here are two examples I can recall of the few fatal (for the Model S occupant) multi-vehicle collisions in Model S.

Rare fatal accident in a Tesla Model S rear-ended by a large SUV in California

A man dies after his Tesla Model S gets hit by a dump truck, likely the first death in the Model S under “regular traffic conditions”

These were catastrophic impacts from much larger vehicles. Most of the other Model S fatalities I am aware of involved alcohol or extremely reckless (?suicidal) driving with single vehicle crashes.

As a Model S and Model 3 owner, I certainly put my faith in the engineering talent at Tesla but I would be happy to see fewer full sized trucks out there.

 

[Pueo]

True, additional mass isn't always a good thing but it is in the majority of collisions especially the most deadly types. Picture an extreme example of a speeding train hitting a smart car. The fact of the matter is we share the roads with some very heavy, tall, large vehicles that can overwhelm the best engineering of a smaller vehicle with shear mass and size.

Here's a nice link to IIHS statistics which provides a lot of detail on the various fatal collision types and breaks it down by vehicle size and type. Looking over the actual numbers, there is a consistent pattern that the smaller vehicles have higher fatalities.

Fatality Facts
View attachment 276668

Catching up a bit as I inch closer to my 3 delivery which should be sometime this Summer.

I agree with what's been said above but also think the relative extremely low center of gravity is a factor with Tesla vehicles. I've read various things over the years that point to this in general, but the gist is that a lot of people go for SUV's and 4x4 trucks because of the intuitive sense that they are safer. Commanding view, big etc.

The reality is that that the high center of gravity makes them much more susceptible to cart wheel and rolling once they bump something slightly off center. Plenty of YouTube videos to witness this in action. And of course the issue is it's hard to design for all those induced body thrashing motions.

I'll be sticking with my plan of a 3, waiting patiently for a P on the front and a D on the rear and whatever the number is in between.

 

[brucet999]

True, additional mass isn't always a good thing but it is in the majority of collisions especially the most deadly types. Picture an extreme example of a speeding train hitting a smart car. The fact of the matter is we share the roads with some very heavy, tall, large vehicles that can overwhelm the best engineering of a smaller vehicle with shear mass and size.

Here's a nice link to IIHS statistics which provides a lot of detail on the various fatal collision types and breaks it down by vehicle size and type. Looking over the actual numbers, there is a consistent pattern that the smaller vehicles have higher fatalities.

Fatality Facts
View attachment 276668

Interesting apparent anomaly in the pickup category, with death rates rising as size increases. I suspect greater incidence of roll-overs due to higher CG in bigger trucks and the tendency of owners of such vehicles to exacerbate the problem with huge tires.

 

[fataldeadlock]

Have a second configurable M3 reservation in hand. Very tempting to jump on it as soon as AWD becomes available (we need at least one AWD car for snow).

If you are looking for AWD due to performance reasons, go for it. However, you will be just as good or better off simply buying a good set of winter tires for snow & cold weather driving. These can certainly be had for less money than the AWD option.

My current daily driver is a rear wheel drive Mazda RX-8 (Model S is the "family" car). While it weighs considerably less than a Model S or Model 3, a set of all season tires with low tread due to spirited summer time driving are no match for a set of dedicated winter tires. Plus, if you get a second pair wheels, you can even swap them over yourself without a trip to the dealer or local tire shop.

My recommendation, buy a second set of wheels with winter tires and don't worry about AWD.

 

[ForeverFree]

Makes a lot of sense.

Trouble is for us, we live in LA. Winter is less a matter of season than of geography. Thus, we can't swap tires based upon the calendar.

We're snow-free at low elevation year-round. Yet, there is often mountain snow just an hour's Sunday drive away from us during the winter. And, a larger mountain that we visit a few hours away can get snow almost any month of the year. They just picked up seven feet in one storm last week. And, we've twice driven through deep fresh snow there on Memorial Day weekend.

What you've long suspected is true: California is simply a bizarre place.

 

[Az_Rael]

The troubling thought, as with her decision, is safety. Obviously, MS has a mass advantage in a collision. And, given the cab-forward design of the 3, the S also has a decidedly longer crumple zone (6-8 inches longer from nose to steering wheel, by my measure).

As someone who has experienced the safety features of an S directly, I was a little concerned when considering a smaller Model 3. My accident was almost a head on, or could have easily been that super dangerous small offset.

But I trust that Tesla will get the safety rating right on the 3, and I will say that the other driver in my accident (who had a small offset collision based on how he hit me) was in a small 2 door 2000s era Mercedes Coupe. He was also uninjured. We probably hit at 50-60 mph since he didn’t brake, so it was almost a worst case scenario for him on that small offset, especially since the S weighs so much more. Cars in general are just safer than years ago.

If you have concerns, wait until the IIHS ratings come out for the 3. Or the Euro NCAP. Once it has been rated by all 3, you get a better picture of the overall safety vs other cars.

 

[dhrivnak]

Newer cars are much safer. Here is a collision with a Chevy Volt and an Audi SUV. The Volt owner, and his dog were fine. It was the SUV driver that went to the hospital. And I would expect the Model 3 to be even superior to the Volt.

Horrific Crash Involving Chevy Volt - Both Occupants Okay

 

[DFibRL8R]

Newer cars are much safer. Here is a collision with a Chevy Volt and an Audi SUV. The Volt owner, and his dog were fine. It was the SUV driver that went to the hospital. And I would expect the Model 3 to be even superior to the Volt.

Horrific Crash Involving Chevy Volt - Both Occupants Okay

Improving vehicle crash technology is a great thing but, I don't know, looking at those vehicles the Audi passenger compartment looks much more intact than the Volt's. Going to the hospital does not necessarily mean real injuries (could be getting checked/cleared prior to being taken to jail).Here's another view from that wreck:

This is the video those screen shots were grabbed from, extra random bonus if you watch there is a space shuttle front section visible at 1:23
4 Alleged Burglars in Custody Following O.C. Pursuit, Crash

 

[dhrivnak]

Improving vehicle crash technology is a great thing but, I don't know, looking at those vehicles the Audi passenger compartment looks much more intact than the Volt's. Going to the hospital does not necessarily mean real injuries (could be getting checked/cleared prior to being taken to jail).Here's another view from that wreck:

View attachment 285281

This is the video those screen shots were grabbed from, extra random bonus if you watch there is a space shuttle front section visible at 1:23
4 Alleged Burglars in Custody Following O.C. Pursuit, Crash

While that could be true the Volt driver and his dog were walking around not even needing to be checked out. Another crash I read about was two teenage girls in a Volt that was hit by a Tahoe. Again the girls were fine and the Tahoe driver went to hospital. The father bought another Volt.