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3-Wheeled Vehicles

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Recall what happened to 3 wheeled ATVs as described here...

"Safety Issues of 3-Wheel ATVs
Due to legal battles about the safety issues concerning 3-wheel ATVs during the latter part of the 1980s, and consent decrees, all manufacturers ended the production of these vehicles in 1987, switching to 4-wheel ATVs."
Interesting how that both underscores the difficulty with making a stable three-wheeler and shows that three-wheel vehicles did have a large following at one time.

To the issue of stability, that's why the Aptera and T-Rex put two wheels in front and the Venture and Carver tilt. Plenty of videos on YouTube showing the stability of these vehicles.

I forgot about the three-wheel ATVs. I really wanted one of those. But three wheels was probably a bad idea for tearing up the back 40. It does show, however, that the number of wheels is irrelevant to consumers if you give them something in return. And to quote Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson about the three wheel Carver, "The Vuaxhall is the most fun you can have in a car. This... is the most fun you can have."
 
Interesting how that both underscores the difficulty with making a stable three-wheeler and shows that three-wheel vehicles did have a large following at one time.

To the issue of stability, that's why the Aptera and T-Rex put two wheels in front and the Venture and Carver tilt. Plenty of videos on YouTube showing the stability of these vehicles.

I forgot about the three-wheel ATVs. I really wanted one of those. But three wheels was probably a bad idea for tearing up the back 40. It does show, however, that the number of wheels is irrelevant to consumers if you give them something in return. And to quote Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson about the three wheel Carver, "The Vuaxhall is the most fun you can have in a car. This... is the most fun you can have."

3 wheeled ATV's were lots of fun. Given the choice, I, and most people, prefer 4 wheelers, for performance, stability and most importantly, traction. Most 4 wheel ATV's are also all wheel drive these days, because the more wheels driving the more traction available, which is very important off road. Even if you could drive all 3 wheels they will never give as much traction as 4, no matter how you configure them.

Just because a vehicle is fun to drive doesn't mean you'll sell a lot of them. Most cars sold today aren't that exciting, yet they sell more average vehicles than "exciting" ones.
 
I have a machinist/mechanic/tinkerer friend who made a good living in the 80's with a ATV 3 to 4 wheel conversion kit. There were many lawsuits and not many four wheel choices that he could not keep up with demand.


It seem like center-of-gravity could make all the difference here.
 
It's a lot easier to change regulations than it is to change the laws of physics. If enough people buy them, there will be pressure to change the regulations.

I agree that regulations can change but that is something that can go two ways. I strongly believe that if there is even the slightest threat that three wheelers will become anything more then a niche market, political pressure will be tremendous to force them to meet DOT safety regulations.

Not relevant. The smart designs, like the T-Rex and the Aptera, all have one drive tire in the rear and two steering tires up front. This design is potentially more stable than a four wheeler on slippery roads, because acceleration is always applied straight through the center axis of the car.

The observation where based on my experience with a single steering tire and were therefore relevant to the designs based on that. Designs based on a single rear drive wheel have their own set of weaknesses. One of which is very obvious in my area of the country at this time of year. Snow is typically not fully cleared from roads other then the few major ones. All others will consist of two parallel tracks cleared by vehicle tires with an inch or more of snow, slush or ice in between.


Probably 95% of the population is wrong about this. But again, it's easier to change attitudes than it is to change the laws of physics.

My post wasn’t about the laws of physics as much as it was about the laws of human nature. I see nothing that will motivate the masses to suddenly want three wheeled vehicles. My neighbor commutes to work alone in her massive Suburban. She could drop here 21 cent per mile gas cost to 6 cent per mile by driving a Prius. That is a 15 cent per mile incentive. I don’t see many people choosing a “strange looking” three wheel electric vehicle that may cost 1 cent a mile over a “normal” four wheel electric car that cost 2 cents per mile. The first perception we need to deal with changing is the idea that plugging it in is a bad thing!
 
I see nothing that will motivate the masses to suddenly want three wheeled vehicles.

Because it doesn't suit all of them, it won't suit anybody?
Is the best the enemy of the good?
Do masses want ordinary motorcycles?
Are cars all there is that offers **some degree** of security?

I for one will by VentureOne for my daily comute. I do no care what "masses" think of it, I only care what I think of it. And I found it usefull and safe enough. How many of them must be sold for company to be profitable? 10 per year? 100, 1000, 10.000, a million?

There are people who want to save the world and make other people do what they want them to do. Some even get Nobel prizes for that.
 
Because it doesn't suit all of them, it won't suit anybody?
Is the best the enemy of the good?
Do masses want ordinary motorcycles?
Are cars all there is that offers **some degree** of security?

I for one will by VentureOne for my daily comute. I do no care what "masses" think of it, I only care what I think of it.

Congratulations on your choice. My post was in no way about me being against three wheelers. It was my own personal beliefs on why they will remain a niche (a tiny fraction of 1% of total vehicle sales) for a least the next decade or more.

Two and a half years ago after buying a Lexus hybrid and experiencing electric drive on a very limited basis I decided that I would not buy another new vehicle that I could not plug in. I also pretty much agree with the Tesla Motors concept that an electric car should be desirable to the ignorant masses and not an object of contempt. I will for myself support those types of vehicles with my purchases because until the masses start wanting electric cars we will not make much of a difference in global oil consumption.
 
Because it doesn't suit all of them, it won't suit anybody?
Is the best the enemy of the good?
Do masses want ordinary motorcycles?
Are cars all there is that offers **some degree** of security?

I for one will by VentureOne for my daily comute. I do no care what "masses" think of it, I only care what I think of it. And I found it usefull and safe enough. How many of them must be sold for company to be profitable? 10 per year? 100, 1000, 10.000, a million?

There are people who want to save the world and make other people do what they want them to do. Some even get Nobel prizes for that.

Yeah, you are really missing the point. None of this is a personal attack for your choice of a 3 wheeler, or anyones. 3 wheelers are fun, the carver looks like a blast, same with the Venture. We are simply pointing out that it is very unlikely to appeal to a large enough portion of society to make any kind of difference in the grand scheme of things. An affordable EV sedan certainly has that potential.
 
performance engineering

weight is the most dominant player in performance . aero drag is next on the list .rolling drag next . how does a 4th wheel help these.the "only reason to make a 3 wheeler is regs" if you forget engineering .if 4th wheel is added to a 3 wheeler is it more crash worthy. crush zones and space frames save lives not wheel count. what is dangerous about T Rex to much power ya stability no.given a weight limit a 3 wheeler would be stronger then a 4wheeler. weight of the wheel going to structure.my dad had an Isetta good handling,strong crash worthy(tube steel cage), it was registered as under 1000 lbs. in Wisconsin no such thing as motor cycle licence plate.thay didn't count wheels.but with the li batterys at 10 times the energy then in the long run convert suv's and 18 wheelers to ev's.local tv reported the li-si battery would make a laptop run 40 hours not a word about making oil passe ,oh not a big story!
 
Boy, I sure would not want tobe in an Isetta crashing head- on into even a tiny Hundai! Modern safety systems (airbags, crumple zones, side intrusion protection, roof-crush protection,etc) for even the cheapest car are VASTLY superior to what existed even 20 years ago.

It is these safety systems that are not required for 3-wheelers. As far as I can tell, neither the Carver nor the Aptera have any evidence of airbags. I am guessing that the rest of their safety systems are also not up to the requirements of a normal modern car.

These safety systems are so much more then mere regulatory hoops that companies must jump through.
 
Airbags? Check!

From the Aptera website:
"Just a few of the many parts of the safety systems on the Typ-1 are airbag-in seatbelt technology, a front subframe and a firewall that redirect energy around the occupants."
They have been doing "virtual crashes" and expect to do real crash tests as well. They seem quite optimistic about their results so far.
 
From the Aptera website:
"Just a few of the many parts of the safety systems on the Typ-1 are airbag-in seatbelt technology, a front subframe and a firewall that redirect energy around the occupants."
They have been doing "virtual crashes" and expect to do real crash tests as well. They seem quite optimistic about their results so far.
And from the Venture Vehicles Safety page:
"Passenger safety is a primary goal of Venture Vehicles. The VentureOne will come equipped with a full complement of standard safety features, such as a driver's airbag, side-impact rails, a steel roll cage, and a highly efficient passenger restraint system, giving the occupants a level of protection comparable to conventional cars."
 
From VV site:
safety_feat.gif
 
NYTimes article on the Carver One:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/automobiles/21CARVER.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles

650-carver1.jpg

650-carver2.jpg


Future versions, including the model planned for the United States, promise to be even leaner and greener. That is because Carver Europe has licensed its tilting technology to a California-based company, Venture Vehicles. Howard Levine, the co-founder of Venture Vehicles, said his company planned to produce a more affordable, more aerodynamic, electric-powered version of the Carver for the United States by “2010 or 2011.”
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/electric-cars/192-ventureone.html
 
Well, Venture Vehicles has it's own bag of problems errr happenings.

One cofounder (Ian Bruce) has left the company, they've changed their name to Persu Mobility and VentureOne is going to be named Persu Hybrid or maybe even Persu Hero. They don't talk about tilting vehicles but about Urban Life Vehicles or ULVs. Propulsion has also been changed yet again, this time to parallel hybrid drive.

Ian Bruce supossedly started a new company for production of wankel engines with unseen efficiency.

We'll see...
 
An electric car that would outsmart the Smart For2

Some people wonder why one should fit electric propulsion into a sports car that's supposed to be about grunt and growl and was never meant to be mass-produced? Why not put it in a 'dedicated' lightweight, ultra-sleek vehicle?

2CA.JPG


As a driver you may either benefit by having a far longer range, better performance and/or lighter battery pack. It would make for the perfect mass-produced commuter we can all benefit from by having cleaner air. Governments may even benefit from utilizing infrastructures more efficiently.

ss1.jpg


Well, there's a vehicle that would be ideal for the job, drawings of which were put on display at the Detroit Auto Show. This one would definitely outsmart, so to speak, the little Smart car. It's more practical (three seats instead of two), safer (better passive features), more fuel-efficient (sleek shape), more comfortable (long wheelbase) and will be more fun to ride (steering input).

ss2.jpg


If Elon Musk is really adamant about beating the big guys at their own game, then he should really take a closer look at this so-called Space-Efficient Vehicle!
 
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Three wheelers are a dead end vehicle and will not sell in volume. Martin Eberhard has said he'd never do a three wheeler, and I'm sure Musk feels the same way. Practical efficient vehicles can be made with four wheels.

Practical cars can be made with four wheels... Yeah, right. We already knew that. Three-wheelers are unusual, I agree. But they do make a lot of sense, particularly combined with alternative drive lines. At the Detroit Auto Show most people agreed that the SEV looks a lot better than the Smart car, and makes more sense!

1. Single occupant use of the carpool lane.
2. Avoids the low-pressure drag that's typical for all hatchbacks with a straight back end.
3. Avoids the inertia that all four-wheel platforms have, as the rear wheels tend to follow a straight line; a three-wheeler has the natural ability to swivel around the single rear wheel, which means better steering input.

PS: didn't Eberhard leave Tesla Motors rather "unceremoniously"?
 
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