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300-plus kW inverter for M3 -- implies MS equivalent performance

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. . .why you would not have a DC motor for one of the motors in a dual motor?

That's a very good question. Inverterless DC motors have brushes, not a good thing in a long durability automotive motor, nor is there efficiency great. There's a class of motors knows as brushless DC motors, but these are really just a different name for PMAC (permanent magnet alternating current) motors with the inverter built-in. PMAC motors are generally substantially more efficient than Tesla's inductive motors, but it all depends where you operate on the efficiency map. At high power, they're much more efficient, but at very low power, inductive motors can actually be better. Tesla fits such over-powered motors that most of the time they run at a small percentage of their maximum power, and claims that inductive motors are actually better for this usage. This will vary between markets and application, as PMAC motors would certainly be better for autobahn use than inductive. Almost every other automaker is going with PMAC motors, in part because they're more power dense as well as generally efficient, and I suspect that Tesla will end there as well, at least for the front motor. Permanent magnets aren't cheap, though, and the Chinese tried to boost prices for rare earth magnets five years ago or so with export restrictions, so perhaps Tesla will keep walking their almost unique motor path.

Current inverters can be 94-95 percent efficient, and designs with more efficient silicon-carbide or gallium-arsenide transistors can reach toward 98 percent efficiency. Those aren't really in really mass production yet, but expect to see a switch away from silicon power transistors over the next five years.
 
99% of Teslas customers don't race on the full racing circuit
99% of Teslas customers don't care about optimal range above 89MPH. ( neither does ICE perform best above 80mph )
99% of Teslas customers have no need to corner like a track car.
I would estimate the correct figures are closer to 99.9% of Tesla customers (and in that I include not just owners but prospective customers).
 
But who cares about that?

99% of Teslas customers don't race on the full racing circuit
99% of Teslas customers don't care about optimal range above 89MPH. ( neither does ICE perform best above 80mph )
99% of Teslas customers have no need to corner like a track car.

Tesla is in the business of selling cars to their target customer base. Their target customer base doesn't need to do those things. Including myself.
Ok, I think you are forgetting the context that's being adressed. The performance versions of the cars Tesla is directly aiming to compete with are *already* perfectly suitable for the demands of track use (or twisty back roads at speed). One example would be a BMW M3 which, in that post, was highlighted as a car people would consider buying if not for the Model 3! The rationale seems to be that prospective buyers would choose the Model 3 over a performance car (i.e. Audi,BMW,Mercedes) because its drag strip times are better in comparison. Something doesn't compute there.
 
Ok, I think you are forgetting the context that's being adressed. The performance versions of the cars Tesla is directly aiming to compete with are *already* perfectly suitable for the demands of track use (or twisty back roads at speed). One example would be a BMW M3 which, in that post, was highlighted as a car people would consider buying if not for the Model 3! The rationale seems to be that prospective buyers would choose the Model 3 over a performance car (i.e. Audi,BMW,Mercedes) because its drag strip times are better in comparison. Something doesn't compute there.
You don't think a $60k Performance version Model 3 can compete with a BMW M3 on twisty back roads?

They will be nearly the same weight, the Tesla will have a lower center of gravity and will be able to out accelerate the BMW M3 out of all the turns...
 
Plenty of former M car drivers here on the forums. They seem to enjoy their Teslas.

FWIW, I used to love how BMWs drove. New ones drive differently than the cars of 15 yrs ago. I much prefer how my Tesla drives to a modern BMW (well and the old ones too, but it's much closer to the old ones).

Limp mode seems to very much depend on speed. I've driven for over 30 miles up a twisty mountain road at ~1000wh/mile without seeing any limp mode (energy use graph off the screen), but speeds were rarely above 30-45. But similar energy use on a track (higher speeds) with will get limp mode pretty quickly. Never seen limp mode driving on the street, even with 3-4 times normal energy use.
 
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Mine doesn't
Yes it will, of course. The point is, loss of power happens very shortly after a period of heavy acceleration due to unabiding heat build up. This is a well-known fact and a critical reason why the Tesla is considered non competitive in the performance-car market. There you go. Other reasons would be lack of steering-road feedback and in the case of the Model S, of course very heavy with poor traction.
 
Yes it will, of course. The point is, loss of power happens very shortly after a period of heavy acceleration due to unabiding heat build up. This is a well-known fact and a critical reason why the Tesla is considered non competitive in the performance-car market. There you go. Other reasons would be lack of steering-road feedback and in the case of the Model S, of course very heavy with poor traction.
Maybe my MS is different than the versions you are talking about or maybe we are talking about 2 different things....but I have never experienced that. Hopefully I won't see it on my M3 either.

Do you have a link explaining this situation?
 
Maybe Tesla did something in the last 2 years. That article is 2 years old. I have not experienced this with my 2016. Maybe that's why I haven't experienced this.

I've certainly driven hard for over 10 minutes. Maybe Tesla did something different with the liquid that traverses through the batteries in the 2016.

For example: look at the possibilities of how the M3 batter might be vastly different than the 2016 MS battery. This is an up to date link.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3983102-teslas-gigafactory-christmas-july
 
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Maybe Tesla did something in the last 2 years. That article is 2 years old. I have not experienced this with my 2016. Maybe that's why I haven't experienced this.

I've certainly driven hard for over 10 minutes. Maybe Tesla did something different with the liquid that traverses through the batteries in the 2016.
Well you aren't driving it under hard acceleration very long is the obvious answer!

2013 Tesla Model S P85+ Long-Term Update 4 - Motor Trend

"...Following our Mazda Raceway experience, two encounters had me re-thinking the situation. At a Supercharger station in Gilroy, I coincidentally spoke with a Tesla engineer and explained what had happened. “What you need to do is put the car in something like a big meat locker,” he suggested. “Cool it way down first.”..."
 
Well you aren't driving it under hard acceleration very long is the obvious answer!

2013 Tesla Model S P85+ Long-Term Update 4 - Motor Trend

"...Following our Mazda Raceway experience, two encounters had me re-thinking the situation. At a Supercharger station in Gilroy, I coincidentally spoke with a Tesla engineer and explained what had happened. “What you need to do is put the car in something like a big meat locker,” he suggested. “Cool it way down first.”..."
That's not correct. I am driving under hard acceleration. That's the beauty of the car.

Do you have a more recent article. Battery technology has changed tremendously since 2013. Telsas batteries are more efficient. Lighter and the battery assembly is cooler.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3983102-teslas-gigafactory-christmas-july
 
Apologies for veering off the current discussion, but I recall someone (Consumer Reports or a gov't agency) showed during a tear down of a Model S some years ago there was still a surprising amount of empty space for a greater-sized battery. It comes down to cost though, which is why we do not yet have a 100+ Kwh battery available (other than the hacked badge image.) My thought is if truly lowered battery cost is realized through the Gigafactory the Model 3 will be revealed with an unexpected variety of battery sizes available up to or greater than 100 Kwh, which would provide Ludicrous Mode at a great cost. I have a limited understanding of electricity beyond the fact that plugging in my car makes it go (not really, but I'm working on it!), but wouldn't a very large battery be required to match Model S speeds if the Model 3's motors are going to be smaller?
 
Apologies for veering off the current discussion, but I recall someone (Consumer Reports or a gov't agency) showed during a tear down of a Model S some years ago there was still a surprising amount of empty space for a greater-sized battery. It comes down to cost though, which is why we do not yet have a 100+ Kwh battery available (other than the hacked badge image.) My thought is if truly lowered battery cost is realized through the Gigafactory the Model 3 will be revealed with an unexpected variety of battery sizes available up to or greater than 100 Kwh, which would provide Ludicrous Mode at a great cost. I have a limited understanding of electricity beyond the fact that plugging in my car makes it go (not really, but I'm working on it!), but wouldn't a very large battery be required to match Model S speeds if the Model 3's motors are going to be smaller?
I wouldn't get hung up on size. With batteries you can have less overall size with higher density. With motors, it all depends on their power rating.
 
. . . the Tesla subclip being vastly different than all other subclips....including inverters and motors. [Garian Garner]

Re: essential similarity of today's EV controllers/inverters/motors: <

And my comment should have been about the Volt inverter rather than Bolt. But likely the Bolt's will be similar once it is introduced.
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That's not correct. I am driving under hard acceleration. That's the beauty of the car.

Do you have a more recent article. Battery technology has changed tremendously since 2013. Telsas batteries are more efficient. Lighter and the battery assembly is cooler.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3983102-teslas-gigafactory-christmas-july

Yes, recent data about the (lack of) overheating of the battery would indeed be interesting.

Back in 2013 I drove a P85+ on the Autobahn until it was empty and was quickly "rewarded" with the yellow power-limiter line.

With SoC at ca. 75% power was limited, maybe to 270kW (see attached photo, sorry for the poor quality). As can be seen from the Energy consumption graph, I had not been driving the car very hard.

With SoC at ca. 50% power was even more limited, maybe to 160 kW (see below link, used to illustrate regenerative breaking on Wikipedia).

Somewhere under the front hood a fan was audibly moving a lot of air, presumably trying to cool down the battery. It was at 10 in a September evening, so ambient temperature was at most 20C.

For reference, with SoC at 0% (and no overheating) power was even more limited, maybe to 100 kW (see below link, used to illustrate range anxiety on Wikipedia).

I did explain the problem in detail to Tesla in Munich, and they seemed genuinely puzzled, so I hope they looked closer at it.

And maybe they fixed it.

Does anybody have specific data from a more recent Model S?

File:Tesla Model S P85+ 60 kW Regenerative Braking (cropped).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

File:Tesla Model S P85+ dashboard with zero range (cropped).JPG - Wikimedia Commons
 

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