3P track mode difficulty

[heems]

Lots of discussion on if/when the 3P will get track mode already. I was trying to think why Tesla has been hesitant so far if this is just a software thing. Makes no sense since people can change the dynamics of a car after purchase anyway (wheels, pads, tires, etc). Thought maybe there is a hardware reason. My theory: the Vehicle Dynamics Controller is different in 3P and 3P+. I spent a little time searching in the parts catalog but no luck so far. Some data points

- attached is the print out for a 3P vehicle. Note the VDC TYPE being a Bosch product.

- Tesla blog mentions they developed their own controller for the track mode.

I think the cost of retro fit is the holdback - for now.

 

[Leifp]

I must have track mode. I've called but no one I spoke can answer anything, they just put me on hold or transfer me.

I decided to try trading in my P3D- for the P3D (no + needed now) and see if that elevates the issue.

I placed the order Friday and now waiting for a call from local showroom after explaining it to a rep on Saturday.

 

[sreams]

Lots of discussion on if/when the 3P will get track mode already. I was trying to think why Tesla has been hesitant so far if this is just a software thing. Makes no sense since people can change the dynamics of a car after purchase anyway (wheels, pads, tires, etc). Thought maybe there is a hardware reason. My theory: the Vehicle Dynamics Controller is different in 3P and 3P+. I spent a little time searching in the parts catalog but no luck so far. Some data points

- attached is the print out for a 3P vehicle. Note the VDC TYPE being a Bosch product.

- Tesla blog mentions they developed their own controller for the track mode.

I think the cost of retro fit is the holdback - for now.

Another consideration... The brakes are used a lot in order to direct torque. Much different brakes on the 3P than on the 3P+.

 

[Leifp]

Another consideration... The brakes are used a lot in order to direct torque. Much different brakes on the 3P than on the 3P+.

What does "much different" mean. No one at the service center could tell me. What exactly is the difference and precisely why does it preclude my using track mode. Since I'm gonna track it anyway wouldn't it be better than not? And why does Tesla or anyone care if I'm waiving any liability on Tesla?

 

[rdunniii]

The differences are in the software's hardware requirements and if Tesla won't say then anything anyone else says is conjecture.

 

[Knightshade]

What does "much different" mean. No one at the service center could tell me. What exactly is the difference and precisely why does it preclude my using track mode. Since I'm gonna track it anyway wouldn't it be better than not? And why does Tesla or anyone care if I'm waiving any liability on Tesla?

The difference in, for example, rotor size is in the vehicle specs in the owners manual.

If track mode is written to assume certain brake specs (including heat capacity of rotors) then it would make sense it'd only be for the car with those (larger) brakes.

 

[Nocturnal]

I suspect that it's as simple as the fact that they wrote Track Mode with the specs of the PUP in mind. Now that they are getting rid of the non-PUP option I doubt they will spend the effort in writing another version for P3D- cars. So probably not a real hardware limitation, but just a matter of software development and testing hours.

 

[Leifp]

I suspect that it's as simple as the fact that they wrote Track Mode with the specs of the PUP in mind. Now that they are getting rid of the non-PUP option I doubt they will spend the effort in writing another version for P3D- cars. So probably not a real hardware limitation, but just a matter of software development and testing hours.

You are making my point. No one knows what changed or why its restricted including Tesla employees, I've asked at every level I can. I asked a Service Tech at the Dallas store what are the rotor sizes? "I don't know". Got a parts catalog with specs? "nope".

However, I do know the precise dimensions and weight of the MPP Girodisc replacement rotors I installed. Does it not seem odd that the arguably most popular car in the world has so little specs available, especially since there are so few variants. The Porsche 911 has 20 variations, sell a few thousand a month but fans can tell you every single specific difference down to the last detail.

In any case, you can't tune for specific hardware when the customer can and will change it (see MPP video) so, therefore, why limit Track Mode to any specific trim level in the first place.

Coming from Porsches, you simply have a button that defeats, or somewhat defeats, the TC or SC + TC. They know their clients that track their cars will change the hardware and they are not held responsible once the warning message is acknowledged each time its engaged.

EDIT I found the rotor diameters in the owners manual as Knightshade said. Thank you. I wish the Tesla employees I spoke with had known this. I don't see any spec diff in the calipers nor the suspension so with my rotors I should exceed the performance of either trim.

 

[Nocturnal]

You both are making my point. No one knows what changed or why its restricted including Tesla employees, I've asked at every level I can. I asked a Service Tech at the Dallas store what are the rotor sizes? "I don't know". Got a parts catalog with specs? "nope".

However, I do know the precise dimensions and weight of the MPP Girodisc replacement rotors I installed. Does it not seem odd that the arguably most popular car in the world has so little specs available, especially since there are so few variants. The Porsche 911 has 20 variations, sell a few thousand a month but fans can tell you every single specific difference down to the last detail.

In any case, you can't tune for specific hardware when the customer can and will change it (see MPP video) so, therefore, why limit Track Mode to any specific trim level in the first place.

Coming from Porsches, you simply have a button that defeats, or somewhat defeats, the TC or SC + TC. They know their clients that track their cars will change the hardware and they are not held responsible once the warning message is acknowledged each time its engaged.

I'm not saying it isn't stupid. and yeah, IDK how my suggestion pairs up with the reality that people change hardware all the time. I'm just trying to explain something without saying "Tesla is punishing you for not buying PUP". As of now, I have enough faith in them that I don't think it's intentional.

 

[Leifp]

I'm not saying it isn't stupid. and yeah, IDK how my suggestion pairs up with the reality that people change hardware all the time. I'm just trying to explain something without saying "Tesla is punishing you for not buying PUP". As of now, I have enough faith in them that I don't think it's intentional.

Sorry, agreed, of course, it's not intentional, but the effect is still punishing as someone who genuinely wants to explore the cars limits.

I came up with a theory. Did they offer the P3D- to allow it to use or achieve efficiency numbers of the harder tire and aero wheels to as it was an available option at the start of the trim level???? hmmm???

 

[usofrob]

The calipers used in the P3D+ (PUP) have an extra feature that makes it easier to emulate a limited slip differential. I don't remember where this was determined. But someone found matching calipers on the manufacturer's website, and saw that it had an additional feature. There is speculation that this specific feature is used to help enable Track Mode.

 

[Knightshade]

EDIT I found the rotor diameters in the owners manual as Knightshade said. Thank you. I wish the Tesla employees I spoke with had known this. I don't see any spec diff in the calipers nor the suspension so with my rotors I should exceed the performance of either trim.

If I had a dollar for every time a front line tesla employee didn't know their own company or products I'd be chauffeured around in a P100D instead of driving myself around in a 3.

(to be fair- the same is true of every other car company I've ever dealt with- and most companies in general... 1st line employees tend to come and go and never really learn much about their own products- when I owned a Lexus for examplei had to hand the service guy Lexus tech documents showing there was a known issue I wanted him to fix more than once and he was surprised the info existed every time)

But surely you understand why Tesla can't plan features around 3rd party aftermarket parts you might put on the car or not. They have to program to what they ship from the factory.

(oh- and the calipers and suspension on the P3D+ is different too- you can find the relevant part numbers in the public parts catalog though not detailed specs on what the differences are, the only one anybody knows for sure is a 0.39" ride height difference.)

 

[sreams]

You are making my point. No one knows what changed or why its restricted including Tesla employees, I've asked at every level I can. I asked a Service Tech at the Dallas store what are the rotor sizes? "I don't know". Got a parts catalog with specs? "nope".

Get in your Model 3. Open up the manual on the touchscreen. Go to Specifications/Subsystems. Dimensions for P and non-P brakes are right there.

 

[Leifp]

But surely you understand why Tesla can't plan features around 3rd party aftermarket parts you might put on the car or not. They have to program to what they ship from the factory.

Respectfully, no, I don't, and no, they don't.

To plan track features around specific hardware is a fool's errand, they have to be hardware agnostic. People who track are going to change wheels, tires, pads and fluid at a minimum and probably add 2 or 3 way adjustable coilovers.

All Porsches come with overrides for TC and SC, not some of them, and certainly now for specific hardware. This is standard across all sports cars, which is what the P3 is.

Anyway, the main benefits of the system in my mind are the BMS changes, battery cooling and strategic regen braking aspects.

Net net, if I want to track my car I'm gonna, I'll just be slower, frustrated and make Tesla look bad.

And when the Germans catch up, guess what my next car won't be.

 

[Leifp]

The calipers used in the P3D+ (PUP) have an extra feature that makes it easier to emulate a limited slip differential. I don't remember where this was determined. But someone found matching calipers on the manufacturer's website, and saw that it had an additional feature. There is speculation that this specific feature is used to help enable Track Mode.

This is very interesting, thanks for that.

 

[Knightshade]

Respectfully, no, I don't, and no, they don't.

To plan track features around specific hardware is a fool's errand, they have to be hardware agnostic.

No, they pretty clearly don't.


Something they can be relatively agnostic about by using sensor feedback (traction of the tires for example)

But some things the need a minimum HW baseline for (heat capacity of the braking system for example)

So far they appear to have picked the baseline of the P3D+

People who track are going to change wheels, tires, pads and fluid at a minimum and probably add 2 or 3 way adjustable coilovers.

See above... things that wheel spin or other sensors can help the system adjust for what be much of an issue... and if you give your brakes more heat capacity than the system assumes... awesome.

but the system has no possible way to know if you put "better" enough rotors on the non-plus cars not. So no track mode for them.

They certainly could program a different, less capable, track mode for the "base" cars brakes- and offer that as an option to the non-plus cars... the might still do exactly that and release it to the P3D- folks.

but it still wouldn't let you benefit from aftermarket brakes- because Tesla is not going to program a factory feature for aftermarket parts.

All Porsches come with overrides for TC and SC, not some of them, and certainly now for specific hardware. This is standard across all sports cars, which is what the P3 is.

Bad analogy.

Track mode is explicitly not just "turning stuff off"

Just the opposite it tweaks what is there to make things better.

Which is why knowing the HW it's running on matters.


I suggest you read one of the detailed write ups on what TM really is and what it's doing in some detail for more on that and why "turn off TC/SC" isn't, at all, what TM really is.

 

[Leifp]

But some things the need a minimum HW baseline for (heat capacity of the braking system for example)

So far they appear to have picked the baseline of the P3D+

So how do you insure the rotors aren't worn past that amount? or the pad material is sufficient? or the operating temps are within range? etc, etc, etc. Tracking a car is just pushing your exisiting equipment harder than normal. Track Mode should improve those efforts.

They certainly could program a different, less capable, track mode for the "base" cars brakes- and offer that as an option to the non-plus cars... the might still do exactly that and release it to the P3D- folks.

The moment you start driving your car it starts becoming less capable. It, like the track, is ever changing. Tracking is developing your skills to adapt to those changes. No 2 laps are ever the same for this reason.

Bad analogy.

Track mode is explicitly not just "turning stuff off"

Of course it's not, that wasn't an analogy. It was an example of why you don't offer system mods for specific equipment, there are too many variables and any car can and will be tracked. They simply give you the change and warn you in advance.

Until Kim Reynolds or someone at Tesla tells me specifically why I can't have it then I'm going to keep asking for it.

It's really not magic, I can and will track without it, it just makes tracking more enjoyable and accessible.

My guess is this will all go away as soon as they can show their lawyers test data with a P3D- and get a sign off.

 

[Knightshade]

So how do you insure the rotors aren't worn past that amount? or the pad material is sufficient? or the operating temps are within range? etc, etc, etc.

You have to make assumptions somewhere. Even in closed-loop feedback systems there's a range of parameters you have to stay in, and the baseline settings you start from.

"Factory hardware in good condition" is about as reasonable such an assumption as one can make.

Of course it's not, that wasn't an analogy. It was an example of why you don't offer system mods for specific equipment, there are too many variables and any car can and will be tracked.

But it's not a valid example.

In your situation you're just turning a system from "on" to "off"

It doesn't care about your hardware, because it's not doing anything with that hardware.. heck it's doing less with it (since VSC systems often use brakes to adjust control/stability)

Track mode is using the cars hardware more to make specific things happen (for example using the brakes, in very significant ways, to simulate having LSDs on both axles that don't really exist).

So that really does care about your hardware.

Until Kim Reynolds or someone at Tesla tells me specifically why I can't have it then I'm going to keep asking for it.

It's really not magic, I can and will track without it, it just makes tracking more enjoyable and accessible.

My guess is this will all go away as soon as they can show their lawyers test data with a P3D- and get a sign off.

My guess is either it'll never come- or you'll get a different non+ version of track mode.

Because if the HW made no difference then limiting it to + cars only wouldn't have made any sense to begin with.

 

[Leifp]

I understand what you think they are doing and I'm saying if they, Tesla, are then it is wrong-headed.
We aren't budging each other so I suggest we agree to disagree as we will know soon enough.

 

[MP3Mike]

I understand what you think they are doing and I'm saying if they, Tesla, are then it is wrong-headed.

So you are saying that Tesla should build track mode to either:

1. Assume infinite heat capacity for the braking system. (You could have upgraded the brakes to carbon ceramic and should be able to take full advantage of them, right?)
2. Push the braking system until it detects that it is failing. (Have it find out, the hard way, how capable the braking system is.)

Both options put the driver, and people around them, in serious danger, and would be very bad. (You really don't want to find out that track mode cooked your brakes going 100+ MPH into a hairpin turn.)