3P track mode difficulty

[BTCTM3]

In your situation you're just turning a system from "on" to "off"

Actually Porsche has pretty sophisticated stability control and they give you multiple levels of settings with varying levels of protection. One of them is very similar to track mode in that it lets you slide somewhat but not completely.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla put race pads and stickier tires on a P3D+ they used for track mode testing so clearly the system can accommodate significant changes.
There's nothing that prevents you from pushing the braking system to failure without track mode.
Hopefully they'll release the more configurable track mode Elon was talking about in an interview a while back. If they feel that the brake based LSD is not safe on P3D- cars they can just turn it off by default but allow the user to turn it back on. Reading the Motortrend article on track mode tuning it sounds like there are a bunch of parameters that people could use to optimize the car for a suspension setup or track.

 

[Leifp]

MP3Mike, Relax brother, you're trying to use math where none is necessary. TM isn't magic or a silver bullet and it doesn't fix stupid. If someone doesn't have common sense to know when their brakes are fading then no software or rotor size is going to save them.

If TM is using brake oriented TC or TV then it might cause extra heat build up in either rotor size, one sooner than the other.

I'm more interested in what suspension changes where made.

I expect Tesla to give me the same software that the 3+ has to and I'll take responsibility for using it safely.

 

[MP3Mike]

TM isn't magic or a silver bullet and it doesn't fix stupid. If someone doesn't have common sense to know when their brakes are fading then no software or rotor size is going to save them.

If you aren't using your brakes much but track mode is you wouldn't know that they have faded until you go to use them. (Or it lights the brake system idiot light.) Which is not the time to find out. (Yeah it isn't too likely, but it could happen.)

 

[Leifp]

Tesla put race pads and stickier tires on a P3D+ they used for track mode testing so clearly the system can accommodate significant changes.
There's nothing that prevents you from pushing the braking system to failure without track mode.
Hopefully they'll release the more configurable track mode Elon was talking about in an interview a while back. If they feel that the brake based LSD is not safe on P3D- cars they can just turn it off by default but allow the user to turn it back on. Reading the Motortrend article on track mode tuning it sounds like there are a bunch of parameters that people could use to optimize the car for a suspension setup or track.

THANK YOU! See, Daniel gets it..... track guy

 

[Knightshade]

Actually Porsche has pretty sophisticated stability control and they give you multiple levels of settings with varying levels of protection. One of them is very similar to track mode in that it lets you slide somewhat but not completely.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Sure. But in every case they're turning things off (or down)

As Teslas development team explains it-

Stability control is an important safety feature found in all modern passenger vehicles that applies brakes to certain tires in order to prevent your car from spinning out of control during dynamic maneuvers. The feature is designed to make a car’s behavior more predictable in emergency situations, but it also constrains a driver to a limited range of capabilities at the expense of driver authority and fast lap times. As a result, many cars have “sport” modes that reduce or even disable these safety systems in order to allow a professional driver to maximize the capability of what a car can offer.

Track mode is different-

Instead of taking away features to enhance the experience of professionals, Track Mode adds features to make any track driver, amateur or professional, feel superhuman on a track. This is possible because with Model 3 Performance, we replaced the stability control system with our own in-house Vehicle Dynamics Controller – software developed specifically for Tesla vehicles that acts both as a stability control system and also as a performance enhancement on the track

They aren't just taking away nannies.

They're adding features specific to the hardware of the car

 

[Daniel in SD]

They aren't just taking away nannies.

They're adding features specific to the hardware of the car

But stability control and brake based LSD are features on all Tesla Model 3's. They're just optimizing them for track driving.

THANK YOU! See, Daniel gets it..... track guy

I've actually only driven on a track once . I'm more of an autocross guy. I'd be happy with a track mode that just disables all the nannies. I've got a dedicated autocross car though so it's not that big a deal to me.

 

[Knightshade]

But stability control and brake based LSD are features on all Tesla Model 3's. They're just optimizing them for track driving..

Specifically, they are optimizing them for edge-case performance on the highest-spec factory hardware.

Which is why the hardware matters.


I mean, there's only a few possibilities, right?

Here's what we know as facts-

1) Track mode was developed and planned for release for the P3D+ only (as Tesla repeatedly said)- and when P3D- owners complained they said they were looking into a way to "add" the performance upgrades to allow track mode on the P3D- cars.

2) Track mode has been released- and only for the P3D+

3) When someone directly asked Elon regarding getting their P3D- brakes upgraded for track mode, Elon replied on twitter that they would release it for all P versions.


So from 1 and 2 it seems the HW definitely mattered.

3 makes it sound like they decided it was easier to develop a "-" version of track mode than a refit kit for all P3D- cars.

Hence my expectation there'll be an update to Track mode that only goes out to P3D- cars and has a tuned-for-the-lesser-HW track mode, but they never originally intended to do that so it'll take at least a little time to develop/test/validate/release.


I can't think of any other scenario that would explain both what was said and what has actually happened.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I have an alternative explanation based on Occam’s razor, I think you’re a fan of his...

They wanted to steer people to the highest margin vehicle, so they initially made Track Mode a P3D+ exclusive feature to increase the cachet of that trim level.

This strategy worked on me - I perceived the silly wheels and brakes and suspension changes and shiny pedals and spoiler on the P3D+ as being nearly of zero value (maybe negative value due to range impact of the tires, higher replacement costs of that low aspect tire, and ride quality), but wanted to be sure I had access to Track Mode for autocross if I decided to take my 3 there sometime. Though I have to say the 20” rims look nice. Until I hit my first pothole after it rains.

I doubt any particular P3D+specific hardware is required to run track mode, though it will presumably work best (and for the longest before the car fails) on the P3D+ where is has been optimized. At least based on their description... But maybe it’s more sophisticated and more married to specific hardware than it appears so far. I guess we’ll find out eventually.

 

[Knightshade]

I have an alternative explanation based on Occam’s razor, I think you’re a fan of his...

They wanted to steer people to the highest margin vehicle, so they initially made Track Mode a P3D+ exclusive feature to increase the cachet of that trim level.

So the problem with this thinking is by the time it was released, there was only one trim of the P being sold on new builds.

Therefore if there was not any specific HW required/programmed for there'd be no reason at all to restrict to the P3D+

And yet it's restricted to the P3D+

Therefore Occam's razor tells us there is a hardware reason

 

[Jason_G]

I’m really puzzled by all this talk of Track Mode being specifically designed and locked in for a specific brake package, specific suspension, specific wheel, and specific tire.

Feedback control systems would ideally be designed to filter out those variables. In the real world there will be unpredictable degradation/alterations in characteristics of any one of these system, especially the tires and brakes. Wether it be wear, thermal limitations, or external environmental variables, the control logic shouldn’t be dependent on fixed assumptions.

 

[Knightshade]

I’m really puzzled by all this talk of Track Mode being specifically designed and locked in for a specific brake package, specific suspension, specific wheel, and specific tire.

Feedback control systems would ideally be designed to filter out those variables. In the real world there will be unpredictable degradation/alterations in characteristics of any one of these system, especially the tires and brakes. Wether it be wear, thermal limitations, or external environmental variables, the control logic shouldn’t be dependent on fixed assumptions.

If you're confused I suggest you go back and read the thread which explains it.

There are no sensors telling the car how much thermal capacity the brakes have- so no feedback control to filter anything out.

That's why changing the tires isn't a problem, but using smaller brakes could be.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So the problem with this thinking is by the time it was released, there was only one trim of the P being sold on new builds.

Therefore if there was not any specific HW required/programmed for there'd be no reason at all to restrict to the P3D+

And yet it's restricted to the P3D+

Therefore Occam's razor tells us there is a hardware reason

I’m not sure how this is relevant. Plenty of people bought Track Mode in Q3, when it didn’t exist and both cars were available. The reason to restrict to the P3D+ is because they specifically said it was restricted to that, so why change the option package (until Elon changed his mind)?

What is up for debate here is whether their stated reason for WHY it is restricted is really a reason. I suggest it was for profit, you suggest it is because of hardware.

To be clear, and to repeat, I agree it will work best on P3D+.

 

[Nocturnal]

I’m not sure how this is relevant. Plenty of people bought Track Mode in Q3, when it didn’t exist and both cars were available. The reason to restrict to the P3D+ is because they specifically said it was restricted to that, so why change the option package (until Elon changed his mind)?

What is up for debate here is whether their stated reason for WHY it is restricted is really a reason. I suggest it was for profit, you suggest it is because of hardware.

To be clear, and to repeat, I agree it will work best on P3D+.

Normally I'd say it was for profit, although making performance package free just after that is at odds with that motive.

I suggest that Tesla is just throwing stuff at the dartboard and seeing what sticks.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Normally I'd say it was for profit, although making performance package free just after that is at odds with that motive.

I suggest that Tesla is just throwing stuff at the dartboard and seeing what sticks.

Extraordinary times (Q3) call for extraordinary measures!

 

[Knightshade]

I’m not sure how this is relevant.

Because it disproves the idea they've only released it for PROFIT?

I’
Plenty of people bought Track Mode in Q3, when it didn’t exist and both cars were available. The reason to restrict to the P3D+ is because they specifically said it was restricted to that, so why change the option package (until Elon changed his mind)?

Because if the restriction was for PROFIT then that restriction no longer existed by the time they actually released the software

Thus it'd make no sense to keep it restricted that way for that reason.
.

In fact- it makes even less sense than that given Elon has now promised both versions of P will get the software.

if there was no actual hardware reason then his promise can be kept with a flick of a switch.

it's not though.

Hence the only explanation left is there is a hardware reason- so they need to go back and rework the software to deal with that.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Believe this entire Track Mode thing is still very fluid.

Tesla is doing some significant testing, and is searching for better ways to enhance the track performance of their Model 3.

Imaging that over the coming years, additional high performance options will become available, as well as OTA updates for the computer.

This is a brand new thing for Tesla, and I would imagine that it will take some time to sort out. Delivery and ordering specialists will rarely know as much about a specific configuration and capabilities as a super well and informed enthusiast. Enthusiast is totally focused on one specific configuration, while the employee is more a generalist.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

if there was no actual hardware reason then his promise can be kept with a flick of a switch.

My opinion is that it is not black and white (or bold and unbold?) as you make it sound. My "evidence" of it being primarily a profit motive in Q3 is that Track Mode is the ONLY reason I committed to pay an extra 5k (which I didn't end up paying due to delivery of the car occurring recently) for the car, and I feel like I might not have been the only one who did that. Anecdotal? Sure. Waste of 5k? Maybe.

I think they absolutely can flick a switch on the stealth P3D vehicles if they want, and as I said, it just may be that track mode doesn't work as well or as long on those cars, since that's not where it has been optimized. But I'm not hearing of any hardware reason which would just cause it to not work, period. Are you aware of any? But flipping the switch on stealth P3D exposes them to potentially unhappy customers with disintegrated brake pads, suboptimal performance, etc. So they are being cautious. And why would they just give something to people right away when they haven't promised them that (except Elon's tweet - which didn't give a delivery date)?

Hence the only explanation left is there is a hardware reason- so they need to go back and rework the software to deal with that.

I guess we basically agree - I think at some point they might make the track mode quite configurable to deal with different hardware configurations to try to keep the less well-equipped cars from breaking too quickly & do other optimization. Once they have a first cut of how they want to deal with that, they'll probably deliver on Elon's tweet. I just don't think they HAVE to wait for that. They will wait, though, because it's less risky and will mean happier customers if they don't botch the rollout.

Since they no longer offer the stealth P3D, there's no risk of them hurting sales of the P3D+ by providing track mode on the stealth P3D. So profit motive is no longer a concern.

 

[Knightshade]

My opinion is that it is not black and white (or bold and unbold?) as you make it sound. My "evidence" of it being primarily a profit motive in Q3 is that Track Mode is the ONLY reason I committed to pay an extra 5k (which I didn't end up paying due to delivery of the car occurring recently) for the car, and I feel like I might not have been the only one who did that. Anecdotal? Sure. Waste of 5k? Maybe.

I think they absolutely can flick a switch on the stealth P3D vehicles if they want, and as I said, it just may be that track mode doesn't work as well or as long on those cars, since that's not where it has been optimized.

Then why hasn't that instantly happened when Elon promised it'd release of the P3D- too?

But I'm not hearing of any hardware reason which would just cause it to not work, period. Are you aware of any?

...yes?

I've mentioned it repeatedly in the thread.

Not sure how you got this far and still missed it.

And even explained what they'd need to do to make a - version available, and suggested they're probably working on that very thing right now to keep Elons promise.

But flipping the switch on stealth P3D exposes them to potentially unhappy customers with disintegrated brake pads, suboptimal performance, etc.

If it did that then there's a hardware reason not to do it

"running this on lesser HW destroys parts of the car and runs like crap" is a pretty compelling reason in fact.

why would they just give something to people right away when they haven't promised them that (except Elon's tweet - which didn't give a delivery date)?

So...you're asking why would they just give it to someone if they haven't promised to... except they did promise to?

That's...confusing.

And brings me back to if it would work "fine" on both versions of the P why in the world would they only release it to one of them- especially when they don't even sell the other one so there's 0 profit motive to split it?

I guess we basically agree - I think at some point they might make the track mode quite configurable to deal with different hardware configurations to try to keep the less well-equipped cars from breaking too quickly & do other optimization. Once they have a first cut of how they want to deal with that, they'll probably deliver on Elon's tweet. I just don't think they HAVE to wait for that.

And I think "not releasing something that'll work incorrectly and damage cars" is a great example of HAVE to wait till they fix that.

You apparently don't?

Since they no longer offer the stealth P3D, there's no risk of them hurting sales of the P3D+ by providing track mode on the stealth P3D. So profit motive is no longer a concern.

Never really was.

When they announced it was P3D+ only and the - folks were upset they also said they'd sell an after-purchase PUP upgrade for the - folks. Which would've probably cost more than getting PUP pre-purchase. So they'd have made the $ either way.

In the end they decided it was a better business choice to just kill the P3D- and (eventually) make a - track mode instead of trying to offer a retrofit kit.

 

[mobilesuit818]

There are a few post about this, and I guess MPP's thread on time attack was hijacked(mainly by me) due to concerns with hijacking the software for TC etc and being legal for competition.

I suggested that we start a GoFundMe to pay for the engineering time(if that's even a thing) so that they can release the Track mode variant to the RWD guys like me, as the mindset is that the P3D+ guys shouldnt be having all the fun.

Tesla should be testing the track mode upgrade for Non P3D+ with all types of aftermarket upgrades like brake pads, tires, rotors etc and creating a baseline, which im sure they do.

Worth mentioning that Elon on Twitter did ask specifically what Tesla can do to improve the vehicles but due to conflicts of interest, i havent responded to him via tweet.