3x26A Charging Limit Solution : Hardware fix still needed ?

[xav1976]

Hi all,

I just got my service center on the phone. They are not "aware" of an hardware fix for the 3x26A charging limit.
According to them, the upcoming 6.0 firmware should only be needed.

Have I dreamt or Elon/JB mentioned this hardware fix pre-requisite (a replacement of the high voltage junction box) during their recent trip across Europe?
If so, do you know where I could find a proof (e.g. Youtube video) of this?

Xavier

 

[gelden]

I also remember that he said that. Video here: Elon Musk Townhall meeting Amsterdam (HD): Firmware Version 6.0, SuperCharger Locations Europe, etc. - YouTube

 

[xav1976]

I also remember that he said that. Video here: Elon Musk Townhall meeting Amsterdam (HD): Firmware Version 6.0, SuperCharger Locations Europe, etc. - YouTube

Niiiiiice!
Thanks, Gelden!

Update : Hummm, not sure it was in Amsterdam... Couldn't find it in this video...

 

[pebell]

Hi all,

I just got my service center on the phone. They are not "aware" of an hardware fix for the 3x26A charging limit.
According to them, the upcoming 6.0 firmware should only be needed.

Have I dreamt or Elon/JB mentioned this hardware fix pre-requisite (a replacement of the high voltage junction box) during their recent trip across Europe?
If so, do you know where I could find a proof (e.g. Youtube video) of this?

Xavier

As long as this issue exists, Tesla employees have only ever given ONE answer to questions about a fix: "With the next (major) release of the software". I am absolutely convinced that even if everyone at the Tesla Service Centers trip over boxes with charger retrofits, they will still only give this answer. Everyone's read and memorized that memo, and follows it religiously

Tesla is doing everything they can to prevent a media frenzy around words like "recall" or "callback". But I would be stupified if after all this time, all we need is a software update to fix this issue. Because the issue to fix isn't the reduced charge rate. They did that deliberately and it took them no time at all, and they can revoke it just as quickly. The issue to fix is that the chargers can, in certain conditions, overheat. To fix this with software, you need to be able to detect these conditions before they become critical. If there had been a sensor in the right place of the charger, this would have been a no-brainer. A few lines of code and bob's your uncle. But obviously, there isn't, or we would all be charging at 100% capacity for months already.

So the next question is: can they do something really clever to guestimate these conditions accurately enough, based on _other_ sensors and information that _is_ available. Like all the info they get from the battery management, interior and exterior temperature sensors, statistics on the charging process, weather forecast services, some voodoo perhaps :wink:. I can see how it would take considerable time to go through all the options. But for such a pressing issue, how long would Tesla keep hoping for some whiz kid to be hit by an apple while lying under a tree. Surely after a couple of months, if they haven't found anything that is reliable enough to be assured no "Tesla in flames in garage while charging, two dead, two severely burned" headlines will ever shake up the world, they would have to address the problem like any manufacturer without the benefit of "remote updates" would have to tackle this issue - with a redesign of the chargers, and a recall (or whatever you want to call it).

The fact that it's been about 5 months makes me believe that software won't be the answer.

 

[widodh]

As long as this issue exists, Tesla employees have only ever given ONE answer to questions about a fix: "With the next (major) release of the software". I am absolutely convinced that even if everyone at the Tesla Service Centers trip over boxes with charger retrofits, they will still only give this answer. Everyone's read and memorized that memo, and follows it religiously

Tesla is doing everything they can to prevent a media frenzy around words like "recall" or "callback". But I would be stupified if after all this time, all we need is a software update to fix this issue. Because the issue to fix isn't the reduced charge rate. They did that deliberately and it took them no time at all, and they can revoke it just as quickly. The issue to fix is that the chargers can, in certain conditions, overheat. To fix this with software, you need to be able to detect these conditions before they become critical. If there had been a sensor in the right place of the charger, this would have been a no-brainer. A few lines of code and bob's your uncle. But obviously, there isn't, or we would all be charging at 100% capacity for months already.

So the next question is: can they do something really clever to guestimate these conditions accurately enough, based on _other_ sensors and information that _is_ available. Like all the info they get from the battery management, interior and exterior temperature sensors, statistics on the charging process, weather forecast services, some voodoo perhaps :wink:. I can see how it would take considerable time to go through all the options. But for such a pressing issue, how long would Tesla keep hoping for some whiz kid to be hit by an apple while lying under a tree. Surely after a couple of months, if they haven't found anything that is reliable enough to be assured no "Tesla in flames in garage while charging, two dead, two severely burned" headlines will ever shake up the world, they would have to address the problem like any manufacturer without the benefit of "remote updates" would have to tackle this issue - with a redesign of the chargers, and a recall (or whatever you want to call it).

The fact that it's been about 5 months makes me believe that software won't be the answer.

Well, I agree with you.

My simple assumption: 3x32A = 96A

3x26A = 78A

Could it be that the junction box was designed for 80A at max? Since it might be a 3-phase input, but in the back it's a DC output where everything goes over one line.

So some wires which are rated for 80A and not 96A? Currently in the EU cars you can set the max charging current to 80A (single phase).

I think it's something along those lines. A piece of hardware not properly designed.

 

[PaulusdB]

Or designed before 3-phase charging was conceived?

 

[pebell]

Well, I agree with you.

My simple assumption: 3x32A = 96A

3x26A = 78A

Could it be that the junction box was designed for 80A at max? Since it might be a 3-phase input, but in the back it's a DC output where everything goes over one line.

So some wires which are rated for 80A and not 96A? Currently in the EU cars you can set the max charging current to 80A (single phase).

I think it's something along those lines. A piece of hardware not properly designed.

I think you are right, but I don't think there are any individual wires that take the full 80/96A. When you have a single charger, you can only charge 3x13A when connecting to a 3x16A charger. But with a dual charger, you can do 3x16A just fine. I think that is because immediately after the connector, the wires are split, so the dual chargers work internally at 6x8A (or 2 x 3 x 8A) to be exact.

Also, I am curious about the 80A single phase (for a dual charger). Wouldn't that mean that on a single charger, I should be able to do 1x40A? But last evening I found to my horror that the charger my weekly hotel had installed after about a year of pleading, was a single phase 16A charger - yet my single charger would only accept 1x13A.

Everything I have seen so far leads me to believe that our chargers have 3 "wires" each (so with dual chargers, you have 6) and they limit them so that no wire ever gets more that 13A. It fits with the dual charger maximum of 26A: 2 x 3 x 13A. But I don't understand how comes you can do 80A single phase with a dual charger, but I couldn't do 16A single phase with my single charger.. Do you have any ideas?

 

[Highkick]

Why can't I charge 3x16A on a single charger with the UMC (still do not have the red connector, though they promised to ship it to me more than a week ago). Or can I?

Well, I agree with you.

My simple assumption: 3x32A = 96A

3x26A = 78A

Could it be that the junction box was designed for 80A at max? Since it might be a 3-phase input, but in the back it's a DC output where everything goes over one line.

So some wires which are rated for 80A and not 96A? Currently in the EU cars you can set the max charging current to 80A (single phase).

I think it's something along those lines. A piece of hardware not properly designed.

 

[widodh]

I think you are right, but I don't think there are any individual wires that take the full 80/96A. When you have a single charger, you can only charge 3x13A when connecting to a 3x16A charger. But with a dual charger, you can do 3x16A just fine. I think that is because immediately after the connector, the wires are split, so the dual chargers work internally at 6x8A (or 2 x 3 x 8A) to be exact.

Also, I am curious about the 80A single phase (for a dual charger). Wouldn't that mean that on a single charger, I should be able to do 1x40A? But last evening I found to my horror that the charger my weekly hotel had installed after about a year of pleading, was a single phase 16A charger - yet my single charger would only accept 1x13A.

Everything I have seen so far leads me to believe that our chargers have 3 "wires" each (so with dual chargers, you have 6) and they limit them so that no wire ever gets more that 13A. It fits with the dual charger maximum of 26A: 2 x 3 x 13A. But I don't understand how comes you can do 80A single phase with a dual charger, but I couldn't do 16A single phase with my single charger.. Do you have any ideas?

Well, it might be that it's not a problem on the AC side, but software wise they can't make a difference between a single or dual charger. So they simply chose to limit it to 13A per charger to never go over the 80A on the main bus.

It's obviously all guessing on our side, but I don't think a software fix is enough.

I also had a verbal conformation from Tilburg that I could bring in my car in April. I informed about this before my trip to the UK where I would be using 3x32A chargers.

 

[pebell]

Well, it might be that it's not a problem on the AC side, but software wise they can't make a difference between a single or dual charger. So they simply chose to limit it to 13A per charger to never go over the 80A on the main bus.

It's obviously all guessing on our side, but I don't think a software fix is enough.

I also had a verbal conformation from Tilburg that I could bring in my car in April. I informed about this before my trip to the UK where I would be using 3x32A chargers.

Yup, you're right, could be the problem is on the main bus. I figured since Supercharging would probably use that part of the infrastructure, it would be properly overdimensioned. But it _is_ all guessing - however it's fun to do though

 

[xav1976]

Thanks for your replies! They now confirm me I was not wrong

I am pretty sure to have seen this information on a video.
I even think it was during one of the Q&A sessions earlier this year (Amsterdam & Oslo: No - München maybe ?).
Unfortunately, I haven't found this video on Youtube.
Any idea where to find it?

 

[ebullio]

Why can't I charge 3x16A on a single charger with the UMC (still do not have the red connector, though they promised to ship it to me more than a week ago). Or can I?

Ik got the red connector address confirmation call last wednesday and received it today!

 

[Highkick]

Thanks. Called them today. They said the case was closed in the DB, meaning the item was shipped or about to ship, thus should arrive any moment soon. I'm in Sao Paulo at the moment, so can't check if it arrived today in Eindhoven.... We'll see next week...

Ik got the red connector address confirmation call last wednesday and received it today!

 

[HWS]

Why can't I charge 3x16A on a single charger with the UMC (still do not have the red connector, though they promised to ship it to me more than a week ago). Or can I?

I'm confused. You buy a P85+ and saved money on a duo charger

 

[Highkick]

I'm confused. You buy a P85+ and saved money on a duo charger

I'd set a limit for myself (price wise), and already passed that. Initially I did not opt for the +, later on I read the stories and I had to have it.....:redface:. No, duo chargers for me, as I've put my money on the Chademo adapter if needed. In any case, for the last 3 months I have been able to cope with just the 220V/13A during the night, never did I not get where I wanted or where I needed to be. Thanks to the SCs. So, there ya go.... Maybe I'll regret my decision one day, then I can still add the duo chargers, or buy the chademo adapter. We'll see :biggrin:....

 

[widodh]

Recently I noticed that my charging is limited again to 25A or 26A. Has anybody else seen this?

I called the Rotterdam SeC and they said there was no SW change recently.

 

[Energie Gratiz]

Last week I charged the full 3x32A...

 

[widodh]

Last week I charged the full 3x32A...

Hmm, ok. Let me call Rotterdam tomorrow

 

[PaulusdB]

View attachment 167936 View attachment 167937

Recently I noticed that my charging is limited again to 25A or 26A. Has anybody else seen this?

I called the Rotterdam SeC and they said there was no SW change recently.

Is dit mogelijk de (tijdelijke?) fix naar aanleiding van de kortsluiting van de uitgebrande auto aan de Noorse Supercharger?

 

[Kooky675]

Probably single phase failed on one of the chargers. The indicated current is the average. For dual charger 5 times 16 A leaves 80 A in total, or about 26 A when averaging this for three phases.