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40kwh Model S canceled

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#61
aviators99 said:
Yeah, that's great too. But the performance increase they just got is for free. The upgrade will cost money they (at least at some point) were unwilling to spend.
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I think some peoples reaction could be negative because it looks like "dangling the carrot". But really if I had the option to say, purchase the 40kwh and then upgrade progressively I would DEFINITELY do this. I don't make a crazy amount to drop 100k immediately. I am currently saving for it, hah! So, if I was able to get a 40kwh right NOW I would and then work up.

I think it is an excellent benefit and it shows that Tesla cares enough to not just say "Screw it were not selling 40kwh's anymore, period."
 
#62
cwerdna said:
However, I'd imagine that there's more other work and certification (e.g. crash testing, EPA 5-cycle test for range value, etc.) that would need to be done to ship a Model S with it, along w/the support (e.g. warranty, needing to produce/stock parts for another SKU, etc.) needed.

Also, perhaps Tesla doesn't feel their margins for the car overall are sufficient if they sold a 40 kwh model.
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This. For a while now Tesla has seemed to disincentivize the 40kWh Model S, which always said to me it must be a heck of a deal. Also there were some open engineering questions, at least from my perspective. Job one was producing the 85kWh car on time, and it seems the Model S was really designed around that pack. The suspension expected that weight below the belt line. Rumor was that for the 40kWh pack, Tesla would have to add ballast weight to avoid redesigning the suspension. Nixing the 40kWh pack, which they already did for the foreign market (and for the Model X), means they don't have to deal with that problem.
 
#64
Wow! This is incredibly positive! I was disappointed when I read that Tesla switched to cloth in the P models without being upfront with it. But this announcement is just what Tesla should do all the time! Be honest, even if people like the info or not. This is a press release filled with great options for lots of customers!

IMO discontinuing the 40kWh since only 4% ordered it is smart, and i cannot see how this would create a sh**storm?
 
#68
doug said:
Was the question of the differences between the 60kWh and 85kWh packs ever answered? Eg, weight, number of cells versus type of cells, etc.
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It was inconclusive. No one ever guessed the number of cells in the 85kWh pack in the first place. And the weight of the 60kWh is higher than expected (we expected the cell weight saved alone should be more even without counting overhead).
 
#69
ohaq said:
I think all 60s will have the hardware but still have to pay 2000 to be able to use the chargers i.e. have the functionality enabled. I wonder what about the 40 ones they will limit the range but can they use superchargers? or even pay 2000 to have it enabled.
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It originally sounded to me like it was a free option, but after re-reading, it seems like people will need to pay. That's a pretty good option still to be able to upgrade, but makes it less likely I would go with the 60 vs 85.
 
#70
stopcrazypp said:
That one is a 41.8 kWh pack and I imagine it's custom made to fit under the RAV4 EV under-body. It's unlikely it'll fit under the Model S without re-engineering (the enclosure is likely different).
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Like I implied above, it's the questions of what to do if you have a different weight distribution (effectively raising the center of mass).

stopcrazypp said:
It was inconclusive. No one ever guessed the number of cells in the 85kWh pack in the first place.
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Some 18 or so months ago I "calculated" it to be 7104 cells.
 
#71
Not speculation: The 60's cell count can't be calculated based on 85 specifications. The 60's have a different battery chemistry for a variety of reasons. Regardign P85 vs. 85 cells, they're the same. However, among other things, the P85's have a more robust ac/dc inverter/converter that provides more current to the motor. Greater current and capacity provide the better performance.
 
#73
doug said:
Like I implied above, it's the questions of what to do if you have a different weight distribution (effectively raising the center of mass).
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I wasn't thinking so much about that and that hadn't even occurred to me.

I was thinking about the (length, width and height) dimensions available under the Rav4 EV vs. a Model S. I doubt Toyota cared that much about the weight distribution of the Rav4 EV as it's FWD and not a sports/sporty car. Tesla would care, but I think L x W x H are bigger considerations.
 
#75
Tesla said:
Tesla is also revealing a small Easter egg today: all 60 kWh cars have been and will be built with Supercharger hardware included. Tesla is taking a slight cost risk that ultimately all customers will want to buy the Supercharger upgrade and receive unlimited, free long distance travel for life. Even for those that never drive long distances, this will improve the resale value of their car to people that do.
Click to expand...

But...this is not new. I remember reading about this last year. I thought from something Tesla said, even. I mean it's nice that they're officially making it an option, but I thought this was known anyway--just that they weren't offering an upgrade if you didn't order it, or something. Am I thoroughly confused?

Anyway, interesting and groovy (IMHO) announcements.
 
#76
eAdopter said:
Not speculation: The 60's cell count can't be calculated based on 85 specifications. The 60's have a different battery chemistry for a variety of reasons. Regardign P85 vs. 85 cells, they're the same. However, among other things, the P85's have a more robust ac/dc inverter/converter that provides more current to the motor. Greater current and capacity provide the better performance.
Click to expand...

Somewhat off topic but it addresses this comment. I received the following email from Tesla on Jan 25 regarding battery cell differences between the 60 and 85 kWh cars:

Thank you for contacting Tesla Motors. The curb weight of the 60kWh Model S is listed at 4464lb.

As for the battery cells, the 60kWh uses the same cell type as the 85kWh battery, but less of them.
 
#77
aviators99 said:
Yeah, that's great too. But the performance increase they just got is for free. The upgrade will cost money they (at least at some point) were unwilling to spend.
Click to expand...


Im sorry...WHO EXACTLY said the performance would be upgraded? It's all a bunch of software tricks...so whose to say they don't just limit the performance as well? The software could easily keep it at a 6 sec 0-60 car. (I'm NOT saying that's what they will do...only that they could and might...and that would totally be fair since that's all you are paying for!).

The only thing you can't argue is the HARDware...which is now clearly 60kw....so I very much agree with the arguments that their battery life should theoretically be better than most (since they will never be at the extreme end of "empty". They will still be exposed to the extreme end of being fully charged like the rest of us though (with range charging). So there battery preservation is better on just one end of the spectrum. Only time will tell how much more battery longevity that translates too....

on a similar/related note. I wonder how much more battery degradation us P85 owners are gonna have (compared to standard 85)? Remember its the extremes that kill the battery (going close to zero range, fully charging in range mode, etc.). It makes sense that flying 0-60 in 4 secs with all those electrons traveling EXTREMEly fast would take a toll in the battery as well.....

I haven't seen this brought up on the forums yet.... can one of our physics/engineering types chime in on this one?
 
#79
fizzazle said:
Im sorry...WHO EXACTLY said the performance would be upgraded? It's all a bunch of software tricks...so whose to say they don't just limit the performance as well?
Click to expand...

Did you actually read the press release?
Tesla Motors

It clearly states "It will still have the improved acceleration and top speed of the bigger pack...."

And why do you assume that they don`t just adjust the battery to work from 20-90% SOC to avoid both full and empty?
 
#80
As for the battery cells, the 60kWh uses the same cell type as the 85kWh battery, but less of them.
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From capacity and weight difference we can deduce the cells are on the level of 300Wh/kg.
85kWh battery holds 283 kg of cells plus enclosure, cooling, etc.ž
60kWh battery holds 198 kg of exactly the same cells, battery enclosure etc except 30% of cell mountings are vacant.
This makes a lot of sense from cost optimization point of view - only one battery enclosure, only one type of cells, only one type of everything in Model S battery packs.
 
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