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45 Minute quick charge?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by TEG, Mar 27, 2009.

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  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #1 TEG, Mar 27, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2011
    Do we know who/what/where will provide 480V hookups for it?
     
  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #2 TEG, Mar 27, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2009
    I think reporters (and some PR people) have been poor at understanding the engineering details around charge times, particularly when different voltages, amps, and pack sizes (kWhs) change the values. They really want to say "it takes X minutes to recharge" no matter what, but then there are so many variables.

    Here is an article that came out today as a case in point:
    2011 Tesla Model S Concept Tech Deep Dive—300-Mile Range, Seven-Seat EV for Mass Market? - Popular Mechanics
    So, I am fairly certain that you CANNOT fully charge in 4 hours using a standard 110-volt wall socket!
    Also, is it really 400 volts? I have seen 440V and 480V in other articles.
    In any case, levels over 220/240 are no longer home/consumer, so it would only be possible at some commercial/industrial location.

    Popular Mechanics isn't exactly "Joe random blogger site" either...
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  4. raymond

    raymond Member

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    In the Netherlands (and I presume large parts of Europe) consumer power is 3-phase 230V. This means that 400V is commonly available in homes.

    The problem with charging a 70kWh pack at 400V in 45 minutes is that it takes 233Amps! That requires wires (at least two) about half an inch (0.4"; 10mm) thick! And that's from the power company all the way to your home, your garage and into your car. At 90% efficiency you have to "cool away" 10kW for the duration of the charge. I could heat my entire house with that!

    Not to mention the difficulty with distributing that amount of power once you get inside the car.

    The five-minute charge time people "on the net" are hoping for requires cables 3x as thick.

    (If anybody can prove me wrong, please do!)
     
  5. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    We were told previously that the charger would handle 160A, which would equate to a 45 minute charge on the 160-mile battery. If indeed that is the limit, then you are looking at closer to 1h 20m for the 300 mile version I think.
     
  6. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #6 TEG, Mar 29, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
    Will it do QuickCharge from 400V, 440V,& 480V?

    When sites quote the press release they seem to take liberties with the voltage and add their own interpretations:

    Tesla Reveals Model S | Automopedia.org


    The Tesla Model S Electric Car unveiled!
    Tesla Motors Unveils the Model S - GreenValhalla - Technology, Energy, Business and the Environment
    Car news | Tesla Model S | Tesla promises the world with new Model S | by Car Enthusiast
    Posting here:
    Eco Green News, Technology, DIY Project and Hacks » Blog Archive » New Tesla Model S To Come With 440V Fast Charger Capabilities
    Tesla: Model S to have fast-charging battery | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews
    Tesla cars - Top Speed
     
  7. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    And to add to that, when it comes to the UK it better have 415V capability.
     
  8. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #8 stopcrazypp, Mar 29, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
    There's so much noise I don't know what it is, hopefully further down the road they will clarify that.

    Engineering-wise the smaller battery is easier to charge in 45 minutes just because it is smaller. But then the larger 300 mile pack will have more Amp-hours so it could output (and thus input) more current so that will aid quick charging. So it could really go either way.
     
  9. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I think they implied that the 300 mile range would use a different/newer cell chemistry. (possibly much more expensive?)
     
  10. Michael

    Michael Member

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    I think it doesn't much matter what is currently being said. We won't know what we'll actually get until we get it and it may have little to do with what we expected or were previously told.
     
  11. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    Not really a fan of fast charging but I wonder that if this capability does become a reality on Model S, will it come with the same sort of caveats and addendums as the present Max Range / Max Performance options do on the Roadster?

    In other words "yes you can, but don't do it often"
     
  12. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Yes. Fast charging puts a LOT of stress on cells and thus it shortens their life.

    It is there so you feel more secure, you can do it if you have to but usually you'll just trickle-charge it over night as everyone else.
     
  13. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  14. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Some discussion over here, has brought up an interesting point...

    A charger that takes high current 480VAC could well be too large & heavy to want to stay onboard in the car. Onboard for 110V/120V/208V/220V/240V AC makes sense since you can find a lot of places to plug into those, but for the QuickCharge (400+ V) it will probably make more sense to have a different charger permanently on site, and the connection to do quick charge would be a different plug that takes DC voltage directly to the pack rather than through the onboard AC charger.

    In this other topic we previously discussed quick charge technology, and I found a picture where BYD showed off a prototype car panel with both normal charge and fast charge connections. It looked like this:
    byd-f3-dm-steckdose.jpg

    So, it may well be that you would need to use a different (likely much bigger) cable to hook up for ~45 minute full charges.
     
  15. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    #15 dpeilow, Apr 2, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2009
    I disagree. I can get 415V 3-phase at many of the places I'd be likely to drive. What's more, I'd be likely to need it because of the range / nature of the trips. So I'd like to have it on board, at least as an option.

    Also, I think many more public locations would be willing to put in a (standard) connector than get manufacturer-specific HPCs.
     
  16. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Now, that made me laugh. Thank you :biggrin:
     
  17. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Did I say I've been having issues with my PC just missing random letters I've typed recently - seriously? Oh dear...
     
  18. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #18 TEG, Apr 2, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
    Perhaps things are a bit different in Europe. > 240V isn't found in homes in the USA, and commercial establishments with 400V+ generally don't have any kind of plug available you could use to connect. There may be safety & code regulations that need to get sorted to make something like that available here.

    So we have some questions we can try to clarify with Tesla over time:


    • Is the intention for Quick Charge to be AC or DC hook up?

    • Will the Quick Charge charger be in the vehicle or part of the equipment left on site?
      (edit: It is said the plan is for a 60kW [email protected] offboard charger)
     
  19. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    In the lates e mail from Elon it looks like the quick charge will be DC ONLY ....

     
  20. ACDC

    ACDC New Member

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    #20 ACDC, Apr 26, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2009
    Voltage intervals... create confusion

    Hello there!

    Just a little "clarification" (i hope) when it comes to the level of voltage in the European 3-phase system.

    The European 3-phase system is "Y-oriented" meaning 230V x 3 in a "Y" which in consequense means maximum 400 V "amplitude".

    However as far as I know the distribution company (grid operator) is "allowed" to vary the voltage (per phase) between 207V-244V.

    If you then recalculate the 3-phase voltage it will vary between 358V-422V.

    I think this might help in understanding that a 1-phase connection 220V, 230 & 240V (50Hz) is actually the same thing!
    Consequently a 3-phase connection 380V 400V & 415V is also the same!

    It is actually just a matter of "voltage quality" :wink:

    Here is a link that shows the "normal" consumer voltage and plug: http://www.kropla.com/electric2.htm

    That is why Tesla's on board charger have to be somewhat "intelligent" to manage to "generate" (AC/DC-convert) the correct DC-voltage to charge the vehicles batterypack...

    Hope this made it a little more understandable for you all...

    //ACDC
     
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