4680 batteries, what is the advantage?

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

Until the point they need to lower the price for competitive reasons.

But if they can’t lower the price across the fleet (produced in Texas vs ca) then they will be their own competition. Yes, eventually once both assembly lines are converted they would have more price flexibility. But those cars coming off the line now (or soon) in Texas will have no advantage to the end user in terms of cost or range.

 

[gt2690b]

I thought the 4680s were using the dry battery electrode technology as well.. which theoretically should yield much better cold weather performance.. in actuality i have no idea if this is true

 

[MontyFloyd]

I thought the 4680s were using the dry battery electrode technology as well.. which theoretically should yield much better cold weather performance.. in actuality i have no idea if this is true

I believe the 4680 is just a bigger version of the 2170's, that's it. Same material structure.
But in making it bigger it gains in capacity while reducing equivalent size.

A note about "Solid State", which is what I think you mean by "dry":
This has been in development for YEARS and it will be YEARS before mass production is possible.
Because Li-Ion batteries are susceptible to "thermal runaway", materials must be of perfect quality or they will soon and rapidly fail (see Chevy Bolt and Samsung Galaxy Note 7 debacles).
4680 is an enlargement of decades old Li-Ion battery design, and it still took Tesla over a year to nearly perfect the mfg process (still not close to 100%).
The other design, the flat "pouch" battery is said to shift and balloon during use, so a question about their long term durability.

With 4680 production in full swing Tesla seems to have the best battery on market right now, and no one else can get hands on it right now.

 

[gt2690b]

I believe the 4680 is just a bigger version of the 2170's, that's it. Same material structure.
But in making it bigger it gains in capacity while reducing equivalent size.

A note about "Solid State", which is what I think you mean by "dry":
This has been in development for YEARS and it will be YEARS before mass production is possible.
Because Li-Ion batteries are susceptible to "thermal runaway", materials must be of perfect quality or they will soon and rapidly fail (see Chevy Bolt and Samsung Galaxy Note 7 debacles).
4680 is an enlargement of decades old Li-Ion battery design, and it still took Tesla over a year to nearly perfect the mfg process (still not close to 100%).
The other design, the flat "pouch" battery is said to shift and balloon during use, so a question about their long term durability.

With 4680 production in full swing Tesla seems to have the best battery on market right now, and no one else can get hands on it right now.

no i was speaking of the technology they bought from maxwell

Tesla sells Maxwell Technologies but dry cell tech for lithium-ion batteries retained

Tesla acquired the Californian supercapacitor maker in 2019, leading some to speculate its EVs would use 'supercaps' for top acceleration. Two years on, it appears Elon Musk has moved on and sold Maxwell to UCAP Power, but Tesla has retained the company's dry electrode tech.

www.pv-magazine.com

DBE is a solvent-free coating technology process for anodes and cathodes. It offers high energy density cells while reportedly not compromising physical properties and electrochemical performance, as well as better discharge rates,...

That academic paper stated the process is better for the environment than conventional approaches as it reduces CO2 emissions, eliminates the use of toxic solvents, and reduces drying complexities.

Tesla's apparent aim is to use DBE as part of the 4680 battery...

 

[Cal1]

An alphabet soup of acronyms, these correct?
LFP = lithium iron phosphate battery (LiFePO4 battery)
NCA = Lithium Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum Oxide (NCA)
SR+ = Tesla Model 3 SR+, renamed RWD, is this the "Standard" on Tesla order site?

So what will be the composition of 4680’s… LFP, NCA? Seems like the 4680 videos focus on explaining how good/cheap they are going to be and skip this part. Maybe I’m just missing it.

 

[gt2690b]

So what will be the composition of 4680’s… LFP, NCA? Seems like the 4680 videos focus on explaining how good/cheap they are going to be and skip this part. Maybe I’m just missing it.

supposedly it is going to be cobalt free: (nickel manganese).. NMA ?

Tesla’s 4680: A Cobalt-Free Silicon Battery Solution - New Industry Products

Tesla’s new 4680 battery solution offers a tabless electrode to improve thermal management and deliver 6x the amount of power while decreasing the internal resistance of the battery cell.

eepower.com

and just realized the title of this thread has a typo (4860 vs 4680)

 

[MontyFloyd]

So what will be the composition of 4680’s… LFP, NCA? Seems like the 4680 videos focus on explaining how good/cheap they are going to be and skip this part. Maybe I’m just missing it.

Not missing, just little mentioned about formula, for now.


Some mention here.

2020-battery-day-presentation-deck

No description

tesla-share.thron.com

 

[MontyFloyd]

supposedly it is going to be cobalt free: (nickel manganese).. NMA ?

Tesla’s 4680: A Cobalt-Free Silicon Battery Solution - New Industry Products

Tesla’s new 4680 battery solution offers a tabless electrode to improve thermal management and deliver 6x the amount of power while decreasing the internal resistance of the battery cell.

eepower.com

and just realized the title of this thread has a typo (4860 vs 4680)

Net! Sekret "fat" battery design!

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Whaaa? I didn't know we could download the whole battery day slide deck! What else is on that Tron site and how does it work?

 

[Oliver’s MX]

Manufacturing yields are rarely 99% or better. IMO low 90's would be viable.

Sorry for the poor quality of this image, but it represents 4680 battery production in Fremont on 22 January 2022. Green represents good batteries and red is for rejects. As you can see, on that day they had 14 machines running and produced 92% good batteries, including the 82% bad batteries from Machine 212 which I believe was being used that day to train folks from Texas And who will be producing them there in the future.

I was also informed that when this production chart was shared with me a few days ago, that there are over 1 million batteries sitting in a warehouse somewhere waiting to become part of the Model Y structural battery pack Being produced in Texas.

Kudos go out to a close relative of mine, one of the many employees building the 4680’s in Fremont.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Whaaa? I didn't know we could get detailed 4680 yield statistics from Oliver's relative! What else can they share with us?

 

[Oliver’s MX]

Whaaa? I didn't know we could get detailed 4680 yield statistics from Oliver's relative! What else can they share with us?

My relative has to be very careful what is sent to me because if discovered, most probably a job loss would likely occur and the pay is good I am told.

 

[Msicario]

4680 batteries, what is the advantage?

4680 is evolutionary, not revolutionary change from what I read.
There is little chemical change from other types (18650 and 2170) and uses the same "jellyroll" design. The significant change is size (less so the so called "tabless" design, which IMHO is a "full tab").

From a mfg standpoint, 4680 will be far cheaper since there will be fewer of them needed, one can replace five of the 2170
From a capacity stand point it will be more, again because of size.
A car with 4680 will have more range as a result.

All good, but would a completely different battery design be better, like a Li Ion flat battery?
Or is the integration into a large battery pack make cylindrical design better (eg. better cooling)?

What I do think is Tesla made a safe decision in a design that had a very high chance of success, vs something like "solid state battery" that still is no closer to production than 10 years ago.

When will we see 4680 be installed in cars and PowerWall? 1 Jan 2022?

Why hasn’t Tesla reported the Range & HP specs on the new 4680 battery? Tesla Sr. V.P has been driving a new MY out of Austin TX for the last few days now.

 

[MontyFloyd]

Why hasn’t Tesla reported the Range & HP specs on the new 4680 battery? Tesla Sr. V.P has been driving a new MY out of Austin TX for the last few days now.

Perhaps waiting until they can actually sell them? Need full approval?

 

[Oliver’s MX]

Perhaps waiting until they can actually sell them? Need full approval?

This is from the recent earning call:

“Builds of Model Ys started in late 2021 at Gigafactory Texas. After final certification of Austin-made Model Y, we plan to start deliveries to customers.”

 

[MontyFloyd]

My relative has to be very careful what is sent to me because if discovered, most probably a job loss would likely occur and the pay is good I am told.

I think it would be best not to even mention your relative. Keep it anonymous.

 

[MontyFloyd]

This is from the recent earning call:

“Builds of Model Ys started in late 2021 at Gigafactory Texas. After final certification of Austin-made Model Y, we plan to start deliveries to customers.”

Which supports the hypothesis they do not want to release that data until those MY's are fully certified.

 

[Msicario]

This is from the recent earning call:

“Builds of Model Ys started in late 2021 at Gigafactory Texas. After final certification of Austin-made Model Y, we plan to start deliveries to customers.”

Doesn’t make sense to promise delivery that soon without publishing the new Range & HP specs from the new all great 4680 battery

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

They're currently quoting 1 month delivery for the US Performance Model Y vs. 6 months for the LR. I suspect that Fremont has either ended all Y production or shifted the remaining batch to export and these March US deliveries will come from Austin. They won't want the hassle of drastically different batteries in the same market so they're delaying LR deliveries to August with the hope that Austin can build all NA Y's by then.

Once China, Germany and Texas are reliably cranking out Model Y's they'll use that space in Fremont to start something interesting with the 3. Or perhaps they've already begun?

 

[Msicario]

I think it would be best not to even mention your relative. Keep it anonymous.

Specially if it’s something negative regarding the great new game changer 4680 battery