500 + Mile Range Debate

[Giampigua]

Hell you have some people paying $10k for features that they have not (and may never) receive - aka FSD. Gotta think more people would be more willing to plop that down on range vs “FSD”, right? Lol!

Here I am!
BTW, everyone has its own preferences.
My guess is that the people writing here has already done its choice on the existing available ranges, Therefore few of us would really pay substantial amount of money to increase it (I would...).
But what about people who did not buy an EV yet "because of the limited range"?
Moreover, the 400 miles - 500 miles of range is somehow misleaded by the fact that those are theoretical ranges.
Real world range - specially in winter - is another story.

I would definitively be happy with a real world 400 miles range...

 

[TomServo]

Being retired and OLDER we find ourself on both sides of this issue. Who wouldn't want more RANGE to quote Big Daddy Don Garlits decades ago when he was asked "how much HP is enough" he replied, "if SOME is GOOD and MORE is better then TOO MUCH is just right". Seems that applies to EV range today. But at what cost?

But having taken our first LONG road trip (1865 miles door to door from southern IL to southern MD) via I-64 I can tell you that my wife and I needed to stop for BIO breaks well before our 2020 LR AWD Model Y did. So we used SuperChargers as rest stops and fueled up even if we didn't need to. This did a couple of things for us, gave us a much-needed rest stop (bathrooms, stretching aching bodies, and a light snack wifey packed), and then when we got back on the highway was were OVERCHARGED and ould blast along as fast as the law allowed. We never wished for a minute we needed more range.

Here's a snapshot of our trip door to door.

We were surprised how efficient our Y was given the speeds and temperatures we encountered not to mention about 2500 feet in elevation changes.

So unless they can get the cost per kW down significantly there will always be trade off's. For some folks, the cost is no object and for folks like us on a fixed income (retired), it's a balancing act.

Having said that Elon's recent announcement that we'll be increasing SuperCharging speeds is icing on the cake for us with a 75kW Y.

 

[Kee_Chain]

500 miles isn’t needed if you go along major interstates on a road trip to most bigger cities. We do a lot of cross country trips and I totally agree with that sentiment.

But if you plan trips into rural or country areas that might last a few days without any nearby chargers… if definitely is desirable. Once you consider some degradation and daily loss. Also consider towing, we have a CT reserved but I hope range is closer to 600 to be useful for towing into country/camping locations.

I think we will still see a 500 mile model S once new tabless batteries implement into the build.

Hello, NHK X, I hope you are doing well,

After performing my latest trip to Kentucky from Indiana (295 miles). One thing I hope the US housing market considers is a higher amp outlet for future and existing developments in garages or at least outdoor. The area I went to did have a SC down the exit, however, the home I visited had zero outdoor outlets for charging overnight. I also do agree with you that we will definitely see the flagship Model S receiving a 500 EPA mile range vehicle in the future. Future EV companies like Lucid are "advertising" a 500-mile range EV which will push Tesla to bring the Model S up in range. I honestly think in a couple of years we will see this and not this year or the upcoming year. My conspiracy is that the tabless cells will be mainly used for the Semi and the Cybertruck to start with, then trickle into the S, X, and Y.

 

[kilpatds]

We just finished a long vacation/drive, and ...

• I want ~50% more range (M3P). And would pay for it in my small car. On the interstate, that would mean "bouncing along the bottom to maximize the charging curve" went farther between stops. But off the interstate, that would mean new routes/options were available.
• We had to skip a segment because we didn't have range/charging. I had one leg where an unexpected headwind left me forced to drive well below traffic speeds to make it to the next charger... and I'd left 20% buffer per Tesla's estimate.
• No, Tesla will NEVER in any reality put enough chargers to enable all drives: some parts of the world are just too far away. Maybe 3rd party charging could happen more broadly. For numbers, there are around 160,000 gas stations in the US, vs 1900 supercharger stations. You need almost 100x more superchargers for a broad build-up, and that doesn't make any sense for a single company: there are good reasons most gas stations are independently owned. Let the market (bankruptcy) take the risk of a badly placed gas station, let the scaling happen via individual actions/risks instead of one company.
• Tesla-chargers are generally pretty bad for bio-breaks, so "you need a bio break" isn't the pro-charging propaganda some think it is. A Bio-break takes ~3 minutes at a gas-station. Charging isn't that fast, and Tesla stations are generally poorly positioned for bio-breaks... (2-3 minute walk to the -> hotel <- seems pretty stereotypical to me). So you're still waiting a lot, or walking a lot, or both. ("both")
• Tesla chargers are getting REALLY BUSY. Off-hours were important to charging speeds but bad for bio-breaks

 

[DblOSmith]

I just purchased a used M3, and I am surprised at the range loss given my driving style. I think it's normal because I can get one mile actual range per mile displayed (100%) if I go under 55mph on the freeway. I had to drive almost 300 miles that way when I first got it. ...but in my normal driving style (80mph on the freeway, driving at about 6.5/10 on the streets... I'm getting about 69% efficiency. I don't know... Losing 1/3 your displayed range is a bit of a shock to me, especially since if you only charge to 90% and don't let your car go below 20% for the battery, not to mention phantom losses/sentry mode/etc., you're cutting your usable battery percentage by another 30%, which basically means I have less than 150 miles of actual range on my 300 mile range vehicle. I think we need however many EPA rated miles that will give you 300-400 miles of normal driving range, not lab driving range. That's when things will be on par with gasoline cars.

 

[nwdiver]

especially since if you only charge to 90% and don't let your car go below 20% for the battery,

There's really nothing wrong with going >90% or < 20% as long as you don't linger in those ranges. When you need to drive ~300 miles is exactly when you SHOULD be charging to 100%. Degradation to the battery >90% is a function of time and heat. If you charge to 100% then ~immediately drive you're fine.

 

[MrSlippery]

I just purchased a used M3, and I am surprised at the range loss given my driving style. I think it's normal because I can get one mile actual range per mile displayed (100%) if I go under 55mph on the freeway. I had to drive almost 300 miles that way when I first got it. ...but in my normal driving style (80mph on the freeway, driving at about 6.5/10 on the streets... I'm getting about 69% efficiency. I don't know... Losing 1/3 your displayed range is a bit of a shock to me, especially since if you only charge to 90% and don't let your car go below 20% for the battery, not to mention phantom losses/sentry mode/etc., you're cutting your usable battery percentage by another 30%, which basically means I have less than 150 miles of actual range on my 300 mile range vehicle. I think we need however many EPA rated miles that will give you 300-400 miles of normal driving range, not lab driving range. That's when things will be on par with gasoline cars.

This is part of the problem with EV's in general and people not understanding the ratings before jumping in. With an ICE vehicle most people could care less about their mpg they simply fill up when the light goes off, they are not micromanaging the numbers. If you drive your ICE vehicle on the highway at 80mph you will also get worse mpg than if you drive 60mph so the concept is really no different. The model 3 AWD LR will easily get 300-350 miles under ideal conditions, but driving 80mph on the highway its not going to happen. For me in day to day situations, charging at home the range is literally never a concern, neither is having sentry mode, etc activated. Now if I go on a road trip I will turn those things off to help maintain the range but generally its not even a thought.

I do absolutely agree we need a 350-400 mile range while driving approx 75mph on the highway, to me that would be the sweet spot for stopping, charging, lunch, etc on a road trip.

 

[Brando]

side note: most vehicle at 55 MPH 1/2 of your power for air/wind resistance and 1/2 power for all the vehicle friction.
friction like tires & gears.

 

[DblOSmith]

This is part of the problem with EV's in general and people not understanding the ratings before jumping in. With an ICE vehicle most people could care less about their mpg they simply fill up when the light goes off, they are not micromanaging the numbers. If you drive your ICE vehicle on the highway at 80mph you will also get worse mpg than if you drive 60mph so the concept is really no different. The model 3 AWD LR will easily get 300-350 miles under ideal conditions, but driving 80mph on the highway its not going to happen. For me in day to day situations, charging at home the range is literally never a concern, neither is having sentry mode, etc activated. Now if I go on a road trip I will turn those things off to help maintain the range but generally its not even a thought.

I do absolutely agree we need a 350-400 mile range while driving approx 75mph on the highway, to me that would be the sweet spot for stopping, charging, lunch, etc on a road trip.

Totally true. I notice my range anxiety is actually worse than I thought it'd be now that I'm watching how fast exact numbers like % or miles are going down as opposed to an inexact needle gauge on ice cars. Also, I get that ICE cars are so inherently inefficient that their losses don't seem noticeable. However, in an EV, you start with the ideal 300 miles and it ONLY goes down from there, and quickly. My M3 is good for now. It's my first EV... but my next EV will have to do 300 usable miles at 75mph for me to think about upgrading (and for me to be lose the last bit of range anxiety I have).

 

[MrSlippery]

Totally true. I notice my range anxiety is actually worse than I thought it'd be now that I'm watching how fast exact numbers like % or miles are going down as opposed to an inexact needle gauge on ice cars. Also, I get that ICE cars are so inherently inefficient that their losses don't seem noticeable. However, in an EV, you start with the ideal 300 miles and it ONLY goes down from there, and quickly. My M3 is good for now. It's my first EV... but my next EV will have to do 300 usable miles at 75mph for me to think about upgrading (and for me to be lose the last bit of range anxiety I have).

That is a fair assessment for sure, and I agree that down the road I would want my new EV to comfortably do 300+ miles driving 75-80mph.

On the flip side I think people need to accept the range for what it is, stop micromanaging the numbers. While also realizing that you can do things to improve range (just like an ICE vehicle). Avoid driving 75+ for long periods if possible, turn off sentry, ensure you do not have the AC set to the lowest setting or heat to max. These are all little things that can help.

At the end of the day thankfully Tesla has a pretty amazing SC network so most road trips you just have to plan accordingly. Yes you will spend an extra 5-10 minutes "filling up" compared to your ICE vehicle if its just a stop and go but that time is part of the EV deal.

 

[Tman317]

While ICE vehicles loose range/mpg depending on driving conditions, battery vehicles seem much worse. I would like real world 300 mile range in my MY no matter most conditions. Also the real problem for me is chargers, way too few. A trip should not need to be planned around how to fine chargers; like gas stations they should be everywhere. Until that gets better my MY is a wonderful around town vehicle but for vacations an ICE vehicle is needed to make the trip non stressful and planning only needed for the vacation. We are years away.

 

[dyau]

i would like real world range of 10k+ miles.
i want the option to NOT have to plan my trip around super charger stations. I want the option to skip charging entirely and go to the destinations that i am interested in. i want the option of skipping chargers that will charge me more than i would like to pay. i want the option to feel that its "ok" to forget to charge from time to time. All this while driving at any speed and with any/all gadgets and features on at the same time.

anything less is just a cop out for the manufactures. we should set higher expectations.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

While ICE vehicles loose range/mpg depending on driving conditions, battery vehicles seem much worse. I would like real world 300 mile range in my MY no matter most conditions. Also the real problem for me is chargers, way too few. A trip should not need to be planned around how to fine chargers; like gas stations they should be everywhere. Until that gets better my MY is a wonderful around town vehicle but for vacations an ICE vehicle is needed to make the trip non stressful and planning only needed for the vacation. We are years away.

We've driven tens of thousands of miles on road trips in our Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y vehicles over the past five years, from Colorado to California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri and we never had problems finding charging locations. We just did over 1200 miles around the entire country of Iceland in a Model 3 last week and had NO issues charging and no range anxiety. We usually put the trip in ABetterRoutePlanner first to figure out where we'll be stopping overnight on long trips. When on the actual trip, we just put in our destination and drive. It's not difficult or stressful.

 

[DblOSmith]

We've driven tens of thousands of miles on road trips in our Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y vehicles over the past five years, from Colorado to California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri and we never had problems finding charging locations. We just did over 1200 miles around the entire country of Iceland in a Model 3 last week and had NO issues charging and no range anxiety. We usually put the trip in ABetterRoutePlanner first to figure out where we'll be stopping overnight on long trips. When on the actual trip, we just put in our destination and drive. It's not difficult or stressful.

I agree. It's not difficult or stressful. It's just irksome. The superchargers are approximately 150 miles apart. That's great. Connects the whole US. I love it. ...but since the cars are rated for 300 miles (twice supercharger distance) but will never see 300 miles on a roadtrip, that means we have to stop approximately every 2 hours in some stretches. 2 hours used to be my commute to work. Although I can, will, and have taken my M3 on roadtrips, it's not ideal to stop every 2 hours if even for 20 minutes. Only two solutions are to build more supercharger stations so they're as ubiquitous as gas stations and we can use our entire range, or to extend the range of the cars to over 300 usable highway miles. I'm sure Tesla is working on both.

 

[1.21GW]

..... how much more would you pay for 500 mile range vs 400 mile range?

A bit more

 

[Effopec]

A typical capacity for 100mi is around 25 kWhr. We're getting to the point where the cost for that will be around $2500, so figure ~$4k price in the not so distant future. I would definitely pay that to get to 500 miles.

 

[nwdiver]

A typical capacity for 100mi is around 25 kWhr. We're getting to the point where the cost for that will be around $2500, so figure ~$4k price in the not so distant future. I would definitely pay that to get to 500 miles.

My ~9 y/o Model S gets ~200 miles on a good day. I'd probably pay $4k to get ~300 miles of range but I don't think another $4k to get to 400 would be worth it. Even less so 400 to 500. Every mile >300 miles of range is worth exponentially less since it would rarely be used.

 

[Jeremy3292]

300 highway miles going 75-80 mph in any normal weather condition is all I need. 350 maybe. 400 seems unnecessary.

 

[ElectricIAC]

I just want 500+ range (150-200kWh pack) to take most advantage of peak charging rates when hopping between chargers.

 

[nwdiver]

I just want 500+ range (150-200kWh pack) to take most advantage of peak charging rates when hopping between chargers.

The original Model S pack was 85kWh and peaked at ~90kW. The Model 3 is ~75kWh and peaks at 250kW. Clearly you can have a smaller pack and faster charging.