I agree with the Monkey. For all the stated reasons and for the fact that unless you've got outrageous willpower, this car just begs to be driven. That adds 50-100w/mile right there. Adds up fast.
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60 kWh vs 85 kWh packs
- Thread starter wbfl
- Start date
That drag race was with a Performance 85 kWh. RCC was talking about the standard 85 kWh.
Doug Martoccia
Member
Sweet! Up to #15295 already. Not far now to #16615 (Reserved 23 Dec 2012)! I've been driving a BMW Active E for 10 months now and the 85-100 mi range has been adequate for all but about one trip per month. I'm opting for the middle battery with supercharge to extend my range for the occasional long weekend excursion. The main determining factor was my wife want enough range to get to San Diego, Riverside and Fresno from the LA area without too much hassle. For longer trips, I'll use the SC and public Level 2 chargers. I think the best way to decide is to grab a map and redline the conservative range of both the 60 & 85. How does each compare to where you will likely drive? Hope this helps!
60 + supercharger is a nice vehicle, no doubt about that. In So Cal you shouldn't have too many issues with using heat and/or cooling to keep it comfortable, so the range will be fine as well.
However... Fresno is a bit of a trip. There just aren't many chargers around there and the grapevine is a huge hill that'll kill your mileage. Double-check your math a few times with worst case scenario of 400 watts per mile and watch your assumptions about charging in Fresno.
wraithnot
Model 3 VIN #2942 Model S VIN #5785
I've also agonized about what battery pack to choose. The two things that finally convinced me to go with the 85 kWh battery (despite a price that is shockingly higher than I ever expected to pay for a car) are the battery warranty and the logistics of taking a road trip with a 60 kWh supercharger equipped car.
The Tesla motors site lists the battery warranties as follows:
40 kWh: 8 years, 100,000 miles; 60 kWh: 8 years, 125,000 miles; 85 kWh, unlimited miles
After 8 years, that works out to an average of 34 miles a day for the 40 kWh pack and 43 miles a day for the 60 kWh pack. My daily commute is 50 miles round trip so a 60 kWh battery would be out of warranty before 8 years are up. The only way I can justify spending this much for a car is if I keep it for a really long time so having the battery go out of warranty earlier than it has to is definitely a problem.
I also looked into the supercharger network a bit. The superchargers only charge at full power until that battery is half full and the superchargers are spaced to accommodate 30 min charges with an 85 kWh pack. The future supercharger network plans that can be found with a google image search on "tesla supercharger 2 year map" shows plans to put superchargers in more parts of the country, but not necessarily put them closer together. So a long road trip with a 60 kWh pack is not going to be all that much fun. Either you will have to drive your high tech marvel well below the speed limit or you will have to stop at the supercharging stations for much longer than half an hour.
Of course, what really sealed the deal was when I was talking this over with my wife and she said that if we were paying this much for a car, we really should be able to take it on trips. I decided not to argue with her for multiple reasons
The Tesla motors site lists the battery warranties as follows:
40 kWh: 8 years, 100,000 miles; 60 kWh: 8 years, 125,000 miles; 85 kWh, unlimited miles
After 8 years, that works out to an average of 34 miles a day for the 40 kWh pack and 43 miles a day for the 60 kWh pack. My daily commute is 50 miles round trip so a 60 kWh battery would be out of warranty before 8 years are up. The only way I can justify spending this much for a car is if I keep it for a really long time so having the battery go out of warranty earlier than it has to is definitely a problem.
I also looked into the supercharger network a bit. The superchargers only charge at full power until that battery is half full and the superchargers are spaced to accommodate 30 min charges with an 85 kWh pack. The future supercharger network plans that can be found with a google image search on "tesla supercharger 2 year map" shows plans to put superchargers in more parts of the country, but not necessarily put them closer together. So a long road trip with a 60 kWh pack is not going to be all that much fun. Either you will have to drive your high tech marvel well below the speed limit or you will have to stop at the supercharging stations for much longer than half an hour.
Of course, what really sealed the deal was when I was talking this over with my wife and she said that if we were paying this much for a car, we really should be able to take it on trips. I decided not to argue with her for multiple reasons
Agreed. And my experience is that 30 min charges are a best case scenario. We arrived at a supercharger with 1 rated mile of charge. About 30 min later, we had only picked up 115 miles of charge, not the advertised 150 mi/half hr. Reason? 400 volts is needed at 225 amps to provide that stated maximum rate - most superchargers on our road trip only achieved 340-360 volts. It really helps to have the extra padding offered by a larger capacity battery at the beginning of your trip.
Moneyball wisdom:Of course, what really sealed the deal was when I was talking this over with my wife and she said that if we were paying this much for a car, we really should be able to take it on trips. I decided not to argue with her for multiple reasons
Billy Beane said:
Is this known, now that the 60kWh cars are being produced? The word previously was that the 60 and 85 kWh cars weighed the same (although it was unclear why).
hans
P631
This fact is unknown at this point. I have a 60kWh car but I have no way of knowing the actually weight until I find a 4600 lb scale.
ModelS1079
Member
Okay, while I truly Think most folks will be truly happy with a 60kWh battery, and may be laughing as they swap for a 400-plus mile, 125kWh battery in six years, I went for the 85 after much thought and suggest it strongly if your budget can accommodate it. I am 2,300 miles into ownership, so developing some perspective. My 85 kWh opinion is ESP true for two reasons I may not have anticipated. First, as above, the car begs to be driven and watt hours per mile will be way above 300 average for any moderately aggressive driver. Second, if you live in cold weather be aware range is affected significantly. Sitting at work one cold day the car ate up 25 miles just keeping the battery warm. Third (I know, I said two reasons), the 60kWh battery I doubt will make it easily between superchargers. Fourth unlimited miles on the 85 warranty, but note the battery warranty is vague anyway. Fifth, remember that your rated range with a regular (non-max) charge with an 85 is 235-240 miles. With a 60 it'll be - what about 180-190 miles - I forget but had a good estimate of this in hand some time ago. I would go only about 75 miles each way (without a charge), 90 miles each way with a range charge, and feel totally safe with that. Especially in cold weather Sixth, the 85 is faster. Which is good for intentional whiplash injury (this car is fast!).
Consider bagging a second charger, maybe bag the paint armour, and suddenly you are $7500 from the 85 if you are already at 60. That's just $750/ year or about $2/day for ten years. Or $4/day for five years. And without the supercharge fee you are looking at a $5500 difference or $3/day for five years. Skip that Starbucks habit and you go Zoom.
Without making light of the significant cost, if it can fit your budget, I believe the 85 is worthwhile for most. The one argument against it is that you will not need the extra miles an 85 offers often. Still true, but I think I'll have needed it more often than I'd have thought.
If 60 is your choice, you will adore this car and I am sure not look back, as long as the above caveats have been considered. My opinion is just that and, I am sure, if I'd gotten the 60 I'd make it work great for our family.
Consider bagging a second charger, maybe bag the paint armour, and suddenly you are $7500 from the 85 if you are already at 60. That's just $750/ year or about $2/day for ten years. Or $4/day for five years. And without the supercharge fee you are looking at a $5500 difference or $3/day for five years. Skip that Starbucks habit and you go Zoom.
Without making light of the significant cost, if it can fit your budget, I believe the 85 is worthwhile for most. The one argument against it is that you will not need the extra miles an 85 offers often. Still true, but I think I'll have needed it more often than I'd have thought.
If 60 is your choice, you will adore this car and I am sure not look back, as long as the above caveats have been considered. My opinion is just that and, I am sure, if I'd gotten the 60 I'd make it work great for our family.
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gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Drove my 60 today from Newark, CA through the East Bay Hills to Livermore, then doubled back across the San Mateo Bridge to make multiple stops in the Peninsula (up in Emerald Hills and such) before heading home.
Stats:
- Started with a full Standard charge showing 185 miles rated
- 118 miles driven
- 40 kWh consumed
- Consistently did 70-80 mph even in the hills
- Quick freeway on-ramp getaways every time (prompting my wife to chide me every time)
- Came home with 41 miles to spare while grinning ear to ear
Bottomline:
- No Range Anxiety with my 60 even when driving as hard as I ever would through taxing terrain and probably the most miles that I would do in a day
- Had loads of fun doing all that while enjoying all the double takes, tailgating paparazzi and the really-rewarding thumbs-ups from the kids and teenagers
If anyone should be debunking range anxiety of any degree or kind, it should be TMC-ers!! I rest my case for a 60 over an 85 for those who want to get a lot of bang for their buck while still keeping their finances sane
Stats:
- Started with a full Standard charge showing 185 miles rated
- 118 miles driven
- 40 kWh consumed
- Consistently did 70-80 mph even in the hills
- Quick freeway on-ramp getaways every time (prompting my wife to chide me every time)
- Came home with 41 miles to spare while grinning ear to ear
Bottomline:
- No Range Anxiety with my 60 even when driving as hard as I ever would through taxing terrain and probably the most miles that I would do in a day
- Had loads of fun doing all that while enjoying all the double takes, tailgating paparazzi and the really-rewarding thumbs-ups from the kids and teenagers
If anyone should be debunking range anxiety of any degree or kind, it should be TMC-ers!! I rest my case for a 60 over an 85 for those who want to get a lot of bang for their buck while still keeping their finances sane
ModelS1079
Member
Drove my 60 today from Newark, CA through the East Bay Hills to Livermore, then doubled back across the San Mateo Bridge to make multiple stops in the Peninsula (up in Emerald Hills and such) before heading home.
Stats:
- Started with a full Standard charge showing 185 miles rated
- 118 miles driven
- 40 kWh consumed
- Consistently did 70-80 mph even in the hills
- Quick freeway on-ramp getaways every time (prompting my wife to chide me every time)
- Came home with 41 miles to spare while grinning ear to ear
Bottomline:
- No Range Anxiety with my 60 even when driving as hard as I ever would through taxing terrain and probably the most miles that I would do in a day
- Had loads of fun doing all that while enjoying all the double takes, tailgating paparazzi and the really-rewarding thumbs-ups from the kids and teenagers
If anyone should be debunking range anxiety of any degree or kind, it should be TMC-ers!! I rest my case for a 60 over an 85 for those who want to get a lot of bang for their buck while still keeping their finances sane
I'm guessing you didn't run the A/C much, given that it was a beautiful Bay Area day today. Right? Just bringing this up so people can factor in the weather to your experience with the 60.
hans
P631
I did a standard charge overnight on my 60kWh car and it topped out at 185 miles (projected). On the NEMA 14-50 it charges at the full 40A right up to to the end. In the morning I topped it up with a range charge. Seemed to hit 197 miles and then just sat there for 30 minutes slowly trickling but not updating the projected range any higher than 197. When I drove the car it was almost 10 miles before it registered as 196 miles remaining. Seems like the pack is getting to ~208 but not displaying so properly.
I also did a supercharge at Gilroy today. Standard charge stopped at 190.
I also did a supercharge at Gilroy today. Standard charge stopped at 190.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Oh, forgot to include that statistic. Set it at 70 throughout with occasional dips to 65-66. The car actually got fairly warm sitting out in the sun in the Livermore valley.
But, you are right; given the temps outside today (nudging the low 60s), the HVAC system may not have drawn too much power.
Bound466
Member
Glad to see that the Tesla Grin is in full effect with the 60. SWEET :biggrin:
Drove my 60 today from Newark, CA through the East Bay Hills to Livermore, then doubled back across the San Mateo Bridge to make multiple stops in the Peninsula (up in Emerald Hills and such) before heading home.
Stats:
- Started with a full Standard charge showing 185 miles rated
- 118 miles driven
- 40 kWh consumed
- Consistently did 70-80 mph even in the hills
- Quick freeway on-ramp getaways every time (prompting my wife to chide me every time)
- Came home with 41 miles to spare while grinning ear to ear
Bottomline:
- No Range Anxiety with my 60 even when driving as hard as I ever would through taxing terrain and probably the most miles that I would do in a day
- Had loads of fun doing all that while enjoying all the double takes, tailgating paparazzi and the really-rewarding thumbs-ups from the kids and teenagers
If anyone should be debunking range anxiety of any degree or kind, it should be TMC-ers!! I rest my case for a 60 over an 85 for those who want to get a lot of bang for their buck while still keeping their finances sane
Well said … I'm one of the "insane" Sig Perf budget busters … could have been worse, I might have bought a boat!
ZestyChicken
Member
I'm struggling with the decision as well. I'm thinking 60 most likely though. The extra 8k is quite a bit for me. The most I've ever spent on a car is 35k and that was my wife's enclave which we just bought last year. Before that I've never spent much over 20. I've never bought a new car and very likely may never again. It's a stupid move financially.
Still the heart wants...
I live in Dallas and the extra range of the 80 would allow me to get to Austin or Houston on a single charge. However, I don't really do that very often and if I do, I'd just use my wife's SUV. I suspect most people have a gasser as their second car, so really your Tesla can be relegated exclusively as a commuter. I'm fine with that. They likely will build superchargers on 1-35 I suspect between Dallas and Austin and Austin and San Antonio which should allow the trip should I really want to avoid using the SUV.
As for speed, 0-60 in 5.6 vs 5.9 is negligible. Both are fast as heck for a massive sedan.
Of course, with that reasoning you could justify the 40k but I have to worry about future-proofing. You can't get the super-charger access. I worry about the ability to upgrade to larger packs. Apparently the 40k has different internals.
The last issue for me is if I buy a 60k I will have to wait longer. Which is probably good for me because I could use the extra time to work up the down payment!
The smart move is likely the 60 for me. However, the really smart move would probably be not to buy the car at all and save the 80k! So, I must admit I will continue to mull it over.
Still the heart wants...
I live in Dallas and the extra range of the 80 would allow me to get to Austin or Houston on a single charge. However, I don't really do that very often and if I do, I'd just use my wife's SUV. I suspect most people have a gasser as their second car, so really your Tesla can be relegated exclusively as a commuter. I'm fine with that. They likely will build superchargers on 1-35 I suspect between Dallas and Austin and Austin and San Antonio which should allow the trip should I really want to avoid using the SUV.
As for speed, 0-60 in 5.6 vs 5.9 is negligible. Both are fast as heck for a massive sedan.
Of course, with that reasoning you could justify the 40k but I have to worry about future-proofing. You can't get the super-charger access. I worry about the ability to upgrade to larger packs. Apparently the 40k has different internals.
The last issue for me is if I buy a 60k I will have to wait longer. Which is probably good for me because I could use the extra time to work up the down payment!
The smart move is likely the 60 for me. However, the really smart move would probably be not to buy the car at all and save the 80k! So, I must admit I will continue to mull it over.
Similar story for me, just in AZ. As my wife and a friend have both said though, $8500 (the diff between 60+SC and 85, with tax) can cover lots of car rentals for trips that are beyond the 60 range. If you don't make such trips that often, the better strategy might be to stick wit the 60 and rent cars when you need to take such trips. Yes, it'd be nice to take the S all the time, and maybe with SC and a widening charging infrastructure that will be possible. But for now, I'm fine with saving the money and renting when needed.
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