7.1 AutoPilot Nag

[msnow]

I suspect most people who are not aircraft pilots are not aware of the amount of monitoring, control and intervention is required with autopilots.

The 6.5 release of Autosteer did not alert enough, in my opinion, to deal with inattentive drivers and/or sudden changes in driving conditions. These 'nags' are ceetainly technical requirements if "Autosteer" is not equivalent to "Autonomous" which is certainly is not. There may have been legal involvement, but I regard the new alerts as well placed to deter complacency. I wish we could be assured that our fellow drivers would be attentive at all times. The number of texters, talkers, makeup appliers, readers and other such make me prefer more alerts.

I freely admit that my experience as a flight instructor doing jet type ratings influences my views. Otherwise capable people often forgot basic hand flying as they became overly reliant on advanced autopiots. In order to get some high time airline pilots to pass a type rating check ride for a Learjet I often had to give them basic 'stick and rudder' training. Our Tesla Autosteer is not the same, but the price of being lulled into inattention and complacency by our excellent technology is quite similar.

We should be thankful for the 'nas'. One day e'll have autonomous driving. Then it will be different.

I'd agree to a point. If it's a timed nag and your hands are already on the wheel then it makes autosteer of less benefit.

 

[davidc18]

I suspect most people who are not aircraft pilots are not aware of the amount of monitoring, control and intervention is required with autopilots.

The 6.5 release of Autosteer did not alert enough, in my opinion, to deal with inattentive drivers and/or sudden changes in driving conditions. These 'nags' are ceetainly technical requirements if "Autosteer" is not equivalent to "Autonomous" which is certainly is not. There may have been legal involvement, but I regard the new alerts as well placed to deter complacency. I wish we could be assured that our fellow drivers would be attentive at all times. The number of texters, talkers, makeup appliers, readers and other such make me prefer more alerts.

I freely admit that my experience as a flight instructor doing jet type ratings influences my views. Otherwise capable people often forgot basic hand flying as they became overly reliant on advanced autopiots. In order to get some high time airline pilots to pass a type rating check ride for a Learjet I often had to give them basic 'stick and rudder' training. Our Tesla Autosteer is not the same, but the price of being lulled into inattention and complacency by our excellent technology is quite similar.

We should be thankful for the 'nas'. One day e'll have autonomous driving. Then it will be different.

Agree that the system needs to monitored, but not with timed nagging. The autopilot in 7.0 worked surprisingly like the autopilot LNAV/VNAN systems in the Boeing 737. It was very consistent and easy to understand when it would work well vs when it needed close monitoring. I was very confident in v7.0 and thought that Tesla had done an excellent job.

I was able to bypass the new nagging very easily. If you are interested in a non permanent solution, I used a plastic clamp and a small bag filled with about 5 ounces of popcorn. Super easy to clip on and take off and environmentally friendly.

 

[jbcarioca]

Agree that the system needs to monitored, but not with timed nagging. The autopilot in 7.0 worked surprisingly like the autopilot LNAV/VNAN systems in the Boeing 737. It was very consistent and easy to understand when it would work well vs when it needed close monitoring. I was very confident in v7.0 and thought that Tesla had done an excellent job.

Personally, I agree. However, in our cars there is no requirement for training, much less recurrent training and no performance monitoring. I wish I did not think the timed nags were needed. They seem to be, given some publicly known behaviors. Still, Tesla could have used seat sensors (the same ones used for passenger side airbags) to disenable vehicle operation without the driver seat occupied to prevent some egregious offenses. That still presents the driver inattention problem. In airliners, even the smallest commuters, there is time available to react. In cars there is much, much shorter reaction time available. Can you think of other ways to cope with that problem other than timed nags? We would all like something more pertinent to the problem, I think.

 

[boonedocks]

We know that Autopilot only works at 5 MPH over the speed limit on "restricted" roads. Is it possible the nag is based on the set speed over the posted speed limit, meaning more nagging occurs at 10-15 MPH over the limit versus +5 MPH or less?

My long morning stretch is on Interstate 985 which is a divided expressway in Georgia with a posted speed limit of 70mph. I get the nag every 3 minutes driving at 75pmh without fail. I will try driving 70mph on my way home today and see if it continues the 3 minute nag. I will also try and do a time laps video to show it.

 

[davidc18]

Personally, I agree. However, in our cars there is no requirement for training, much less recurrent training and no performance monitoring. I wish I did not think the timed nags were needed. They seem to be, given some publicly known behaviors. Still, Tesla could have used seat sensors (the same ones used for passenger side airbags) to disenable vehicle operation without the driver seat occupied to prevent some egregious offenses. That still presents the driver inattention problem. In airliners, even the smallest commuters, there is time available to react. In cars there is much, much shorter reaction time available. Can you think of other ways to cope with that problem other than timed nags? We would all like something more pertinent to the problem, I think.

I was hoping that the weight in the seat switch would be enough.

The problem with the speed limit signs is that the car gets it wrong quite often. I am also very curious if there have been any accidents caused by not having a timed "nag". Its just my opinion but I don't need my car nagging me to touch the wheel. I am very capable of monitoring the car and what is happening around it. Touching the wheel has nothing to do with how much the driver is paying attention. As you well know, driving safely in S.Florida is an exercise in defensive driving at all times. Anyway, there is no avoiding the update in the long term, so the best I can hope for is that in a future update the nagging will be removed.

I know this is not really an "answer" to your posted question. I do know that there is no way to force the driver to pay attention. The driver is there to monitor and back up the automation. This tends to work well with aviation, but I can see that there will likely be issues down the road with this type of automation and driving. As the automation becomes better, there will be less "hand on" experience with driving and the circle of dependency will continue. Just look at the latest from the FAA on pilots and "stick and throttle" issues arising from the over reliance on automation.

 

[msnow]

I was hoping that the weight in the seat switch would be enough.

The problem with the speed limit signs is that the car gets it wrong quite often. I am also very curious if there have been any accidents caused by not having a timed "nag". Its just my opinion but I don't need my car nagging me to touch the wheel. I am very capable of monitoring the car and what is happening around it. Touching the wheel has nothing to do with how much the driver is paying attention. As you well know, driving safely in S.Florida is an exercise in defensive driving at all times. Anyway, there is no avoiding the update in the long term, so the best I can hope for is that in a future update the nagging will be removed.

I know this is not really an "answer" to your posted question. I do know that there is no way to force the driver to pay attention. The driver is there to monitor and back up the automation. This tends to work well with aviation, but I can see that there will likely be issues down the road with this type of automation and driving. As the automation becomes better, there will be less "hand on" experience with driving and the circle of dependency will continue. Just look at the latest from the FAA on pilots and "stick and throttle" issues arising from the over reliance on automation.

I've got to believe that the "nags" are a result of media attention to the "look ma no hands" videos and, more importantly, legal and regulatory issues, not accidents.

 

[kort677]

maybe the car will "learn" to nag less often

 

[JMG]

I'm really bummed about these new safety features.

50% of my commute is on a 2-lane state highway with 75mph speed limits. It was just repaved not long ago, so it has very distinct lane markings. So autopilot always handled it with ease. However, there is a small section where the car thinks the speed limit drops to 70. There is no sign to trick it, must be some GPS database that is incorrect.

I initially thought the "restricted" roads were just residential roads and those without a center line. I now that it says, center divider. So unless the road as a turning lane or median, it's restricted. Normally this wouldn't be an issue for me personally, because of Texas highway patrol, I usually keep at 5mph above the speed limit anyways. However, this morning on my way to work, it missed a 75mph speed limit sign and thought the speed limit was 60mph for a good 10 or so miles of my commute until I came across another 75mph speed limit sign to correct itself. Thus, it wouldn't let me go above 65mph for using autopilot where I normally drive 79-80.

Not liking it...

 

[zer0cool]

Texas has some high speed limit... speed limit for 2 lane state highways here in the Carolinas generally won't exceed 60 mph, maybe a few at 65 mph in really remote areas (and these are generally divided highways).

 

[InternetDude]

I didn't read all the threads on the nag yet but perhaps the nag timing depends on your set speed?

 

[Max*]

I didn't read all the threads on the nag yet but perhaps the nag timing depends on your set speed?

I'm trying to gather data here, How and why to nag (AP V7.1)

I'm more inclined that it's speed limit, not set speed, but I don't have enough data points yet.

 

[InternetDude]

I have 7.1 but just haven't had time to test anything yet

 

[AWDtsla]

IMHO that truly, completely eliminates the benefit of the system: an opinion I feel very strongly about for the reasons below. If hands on the wheel were genuinely required (e.g. by nags after ten seconds of no torque as in the current Mercedes system) I would never engage AP again.

Yup. I can understand Tesla taking the stance that the car is still your responsibility, but nagging you to perform a useless function completely eliminates the benefits.

 

[Carl Leermakers]

There was an accident in the Netherlands yesterday, where the driver, after driving into a truck moving on the same lane, and making a total loss of his car, blamed AP. Probably not very difficult for Tesla to find out whether AP was deficient or not, but anyway: are we in the future going to have Tesla in-board cameras monitoring whether our eyes are on the road (or reading the news, instead), and nagging us about that as well ?

 

[Max*]

are we in the future going to have Tesla in-board cameras monitoring whether our eyes are on the road (or reading the news, instead), and nagging us about that as well ?

I doubt it. The future is getting out of Level 2 autonomy and moving to Level 3, which is semi-autonomous, which means you can take a nap and the car would be legally responsible.

EM promised that future in 2 years, maybe 3. So we'll probably see it from him and other big name brands in 5 years time.

 

[Todd Burch]

Today I went 8 minutes, 34 seconds without a nag. Plus or minus about a half second. Didn't touch the wheel, cruise speed, turn signals, pedals...not even the radio. Didn't touch a single control in the car the whole time. This verifies what I thought I saw yesterday.

I was traveling between 60-70 mph almost the whole time, with my set speed at 70 and the speed limit at 65 mph. Even went thru a construction zone where they're widening the highway from 2 lanes to 3 and had ground down some of the old stripes and painted new ones half a lane away--not one nag.

It wasn't until I passed by a car that was parked on the shoulder that the nag appeared. Coincidence maybe, but maybe not.

Timed this with a stopwatch, and watching it like a hawk.

If there is a timed nag, it's only under a certain set of conditions.

 

[boonedocks]

Two time-lapse videos showing the 3 minute nag made back to back on this mornings commute. A/P set at 75mph on I985 Southbound in Georgia with light traffic. (posted speed limit 70mph)

 

[davidc18]

Okay, I did hear back from Tesla today (after emailing after the 7.1 upgrade) and they stated that they the way autopilot interprets when it need you to "hold wheel" has changed but there is "to their knowledge" no specific timed requirement. On my drive to work today I did not get the hold wheel request until about the 15 minute mark and on my return trip I was not "nagged" at all on the 25 minute drive. The time of day was different from my first report but the roads were the same. Perhaps there is no timed nag. My drive today does suggest that.

 

[boonedocks]

Okay, I did hear back from Tesla today (after emailing after the 7.1 upgrade) and they stated that they the way autopilot interprets when it need you to "hold wheel" has changed but there is "to their knowledge" no specific timed requirement. On my drive to work today I did not get the hold wheel request until about the 15 minute mark and on my return trip I was not "nagged" at all on the 25 minute drive. The time of day was different from my first report but the roads were the same. Perhaps there is no timed nag. My drive today does suggest that.

ABSOLUTELY there is. I have confirmed it repeatedly and even posted videos. Now it may be by road or expressway/interstate but there IS. Mine started the minute I upgraded to 7.1 Never had them before on this stretch and now they are repeatable at 3 minute intervals

 

[Max*]

ABSOLUTELY there is. I have confirmed it repeatedly and even posted videos. Now it may be by road or expressway/interstate but there IS. Mine started the minute I upgraded to 7.1 Never had them before on this stretch and now they are repeatable at 3 minute intervals

Same. Mine is also 3 minutes on the highway and it's 1 minute on (what Tesla thinks) is a undivided highway with a lower speed limit.

Something is definitely up, and typical Tesla making **** up as they go along. Why not answer truthfully "I have no idea, I'll email engineering, who knows better and hopefully they get back to you soon"