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70amp main breaker - what can I install?

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Biggest issue is if your AC or other high draw appliance kicks on while you are charging. That surge could easily trip your breaker...or worse.

Have to error on the side of caution with electrical current draw.

Believe a 30 amp draw might be a good choice.

Electricians tend to be cautions when installing extra high draw outlets. You might be able to game your system by charging at different times of the day, but the next owner would not know to be cautions and suffer a loss.
 
Yes, 30A is max, 20A would be safer. Either way, the Wall Connector hardwired is easiest method with that breaker box. Not needing to figure out how many circuits to combine on other breakers to squeeze in a 2-pole GFCI breaker is one major headache to not have to deal with.
 
Well, 2020 NEC fixed that by requiring it for all outlets in a garage. Once all states adopt the 2020 NEC that is...
Yes, when I first saw that weird EV requirement, I immediately thought how insane that is. Code should not be based on someone's state of mind or intention or preference of what they plan to plug into an outlet. That is just not defined enough. It's like the crazy anti-alcohol laws in Utah. They have a law that places like a restaurant are not allowed to serve just alcohol unless the customer is "intending" to also buy food with it. But it's not required. So a person could "intend" to order food, but then "change their mind" and not. It just lends itself to hand waving and gaming the system.

Either way, the Wall Connector hardwired is easiest method with that breaker box. Not needing to figure out how many circuits to combine on other breakers to squeeze in a 2-pole GFCI breaker is one major headache to not have to deal with.
Huh? You still have to deal with it. You can't just not use a breaker. Using the wall connector will still have to deal with all of those same issues of figuring out how to combine things and free up the two spaces. It's just a question of which type of breaker goes into that double space.
 
Huh? You still have to deal with it. You can't just not use a breaker. Using the wall connector will still have to deal with all of those same issues of figuring out how to combine things and free up the two spaces. It's just a question of which type of breaker goes into that double space.
Wouldn't a quad breaker cover it? Only one combining or none depending which style you use.

2 options, find a circuit to combine the normal 20A breaker on the bottom with and then install this:
1648141453915.png


Or go big and install this instead of the 40A AC breaker (no combining required):
1648141651255.png

QUAD TANDEM MINI CIRCUIT BREAKER, HOMELINE, 1 X 2 POLE AT 30A, 1 X 2 POLE AT 40A, 120/240VAC

For me, I’d go with the SimpleSwitch 240EV. Ties into existing AC breaker so no need to mess with panel arrangement, monitors current and only allows EV charging when AC is off. Includes EVSE so at $800 is only $300 more than the Wall Connector but infinitely safer when worried about load calculations and alleviates all the headaches with the panel.

 
Wouldn't a quad breaker cover it? Only one combining or none depending which style you use.

2 options, find a circuit to combine the normal 20A breaker on the bottom with and then install this:
View attachment 785235

Or go big and install this instead of the 40A AC breaker (no combining required):
View attachment 785236
QUAD TANDEM MINI CIRCUIT BREAKER, HOMELINE, 1 X 2 POLE AT 30A, 1 X 2 POLE AT 40A, 120/240VAC

For me, I’d go with the SimpleSwitch 240EV. Ties into existing AC breaker so no need to mess with panel arrangement, monitors current and only allows EV charging when AC is off. Includes EVSE so at $800 is only $300 more than the Wall Connector but infinitely safer when worried about load calculations and alleviates all the headaches with the panel.

Let's get this straight.
  1. Our guy has a 70A Main Breaker on his panel. That's not a lot.
  2. He already has an A/C hooked into that panel, with the appropriate 40A breaker hooked in there. That leaves 30A left over, roughly. We're talking a condo here: So, that 30A has to supply any appliances (microwave, refrigerator, dishwasher, stove (probably gas, but still), garbage disposal), and the lights in the house, TV sets when running, cable box, PCs, and what-all.
  3. There Are Rules About How Much Load One Can Put On A Panel. It's in the National Electric Code or whatever they call it in Canada. However, it's pretty blame obvious that, for example, adding a 60A double-breaker for 240 VAC service Is Not Going To Fly.
  4. So what is going to fly? Well.... probably hooking up a Tesla Mobile Connector at 120 VAC 12A, max won't pop a breaker. But given that it's 70A service and that Air Conditioning/Heating is a Thing, I, personally, would be kinda holding my breath.
  5. As I said in a previous post in this thread, One Does Not Set Things Up So That Breakers Pop On Anything Close To A Regular Basis. Doing so is very literally playing with Fire.
  6. In fact, I half wonder that, if the original poster's Condo was built today, whether the builders would be able to get away with that 70A panel at all.
  7. The Right Thing To Do would be to call the power company and have, at bare minimum, 100A service installed, and 150A would be Better. And have the resident electrician Do Their Thing. Yes, thousands of dollars. But what would you rather have? (a) A condo burned to the ground or (b) be poorer by a couple-three grand?
 
Wouldn't a quad breaker cover it?
...which is all of the trouble and "headache" you were mentioning before--unhooking and swapping and buying quad breakers and rearranging and installing them.

For me, I’d go with the SimpleSwitch 240EV.
...which is something I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
I've seen people recommend that here on the forum before too, and it is shockingly devoid of any information on their website. I went to the site you linked to below, and it is still barren of any details. The only link for that 240EV product is "Add to cart". No thank you--I want to read details of what it is and what it does first. There is a link to "Technical Specification Sheet", which just goes to an error 404 of the page being missing. No, I wouldn't dare deal with them or buy anything from them until I could find out what it is. And that's not to mention the fact that an EVSE is supposed to be on a dedicated circuit, which this seems to not be, since it appears to be about sharing a circuit breaker with another appliance.
 
...which is all of the trouble and "headache" you were mentioning before--unhooking and swapping and buying quad breakers and rearranging and installing them.


...which is something I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
I've seen people recommend that here on the forum before too, and it is shockingly devoid of any information on their website. I went to the site you linked to below, and it is still barren of any details. The only link for that 240EV product is "Add to cart". No thank you--I want to read details of what it is and what it does first. There is a link to "Technical Specification Sheet", which just goes to an error 404 of the page being missing. No, I wouldn't dare deal with them or buy anything from them until I could find out what it is. And that's not to mention the fact that an EVSE is supposed to be on a dedicated circuit, which this seems to not be, since it appears to be about sharing a circuit breaker with another appliance.

Yes, the website is missing some critical information that they appear to have divulged in early interviews that should be plainly stated on the website. Primary needs to be drawing less than 150 watts for secondary to operate which at 240V is 0.6A. It’s an automatic dryer buddy without plugs.

1648187260379.png


Article from Charged EV digital magazine

simpleSwitch makes it easy to install a Level 2 charger without upgrading your power panel

Posted October 17, 2021 by Charles Morris & filed under Fleets and Infrastructure, Newswire, The Infrastructure.

Most EV owners choose to install a Level 2 charging station at their homes, and for most, it’s a reasonably priced and hassle-free process. However, a substantial number, particular those living in older buildings, will find that their electrical panel lacks the capacity to add a dedicated 240-volt circuit for EV charging, and this is when things can get messy—and expensive.

Simply splitting an existing circuit, as you would to add a 120-volt device such as a lamp or a TV, isn’t a good option—it’s unsafe, and it’s inconvenient. Fortunately, you can buy a device that will allow your charger to safely and seamlessly share a circuit with an existing 240-volt appliance such as a range or dryer.

In our September/October 2020 issue, we wrote about NeoCharge’s Smart Splitter. Another option is the simpleSwitch from B&B Technology Solutions. This is a UL-listed product that’s designed for permanent installation at any home or business. An additional feature allows owners of multi-unit dwellings to add Level 2 charging and bill it directly to tenants.

The simpleSwitch is a power management device that’s installed on an existing 240 VAC circuit of up to 50 amps. Once installed, two appliances share the circuit. One appliance (for example, a range, dryer, AC or water heater) is designated as primary, and another as secondary. The secondary appliance can be a Level 2 EV charger or just about anything else (e.g. RV hookup, welder). The maximum recommended amperage for the secondary appliance is 32 amps, and the switch itself is rated for 40 amps continuous use.

The simpleSwitch always supplies uninterrupted power to the primary appliance. The secondary appliance only receives power when the primary is not in use, or is drawing less than 150 watts. No WiFi, app or extra power is required, and the device is safe for outdoor use (the company’s web site features a video in which it gets dunked in a tank of water with no apparent ill effects).

The simpleSwitch constantly monitors electrical usage. If the demand exceeds 80% of the allowable load, the 240M will shed the added load, and limit the current draw to less than 80% of the maximum safe level. When the demand drops, the secondary load will automatically be switched back on.

The simpleSwitch comes in three configurations. The simpleSwitch 240, which goes for $549, can share power between any two 240-volt appliances. The simpleSwitch 240EV ($699) adds a 25-foot cable and a J1772 connector, making it a Level 2 charger and smart switch in one. The simpleSwitch 240M ($649) is designed for apartments, condos and duplexes—install one in each parking spot, and it allows you to bill each tenant for their individual electrical usage

Article from EV Resources
 
Let's get this straight.
  1. Our guy has a 70A Main Breaker on his panel. That's not a lot.
  2. He already has an A/C hooked into that panel, with the appropriate 40A breaker hooked in there. That leaves 30A left over, roughly. We're talking a condo here: So, that 30A has to supply any appliances (microwave, refrigerator, dishwasher, stove (probably gas, but still), garbage disposal), and the lights in the house, TV sets when running, cable box, PCs, and what-all.
  3. There Are Rules About How Much Load One Can Put On A Panel. It's in the National Electric Code or whatever they call it in Canada. However, it's pretty blame obvious that, for example, adding a 60A double-breaker for 240 VAC service Is Not Going To Fly.
  4. So what is going to fly? Well.... probably hooking up a Tesla Mobile Connector at 120 VAC 12A, max won't pop a breaker. But given that it's 70A service and that Air Conditioning/Heating is a Thing, I, personally, would be kinda holding my breath.
  5. As I said in a previous post in this thread, One Does Not Set Things Up So That Breakers Pop On Anything Close To A Regular Basis. Doing so is very literally playing with Fire.
  6. In fact, I half wonder that, if the original poster's Condo was built today, whether the builders would be able to get away with that 70A panel at all.
  7. The Right Thing To Do would be to call the power company and have, at bare minimum, 100A service installed, and 150A would be Better. And have the resident electrician Do Their Thing. Yes, thousands of dollars. But what would you rather have? (a) A condo burned to the ground or (b) be poorer by a couple-three grand?
If you know anything about condos, you won’t be able to upgrade the service. It’s already split 70/60/60/70 to 4 units. And the 30A available you speak of is 30A 240 which is 60A 120. AC only draws max at startup for a few seconds. Same with fridge and that’s not close to 12A, more like 6A. Garbage disposal and microwave are really the only relavent high draws you list and even both maxing out at same time is 15A 240 equivalent. So still 30A 120V to run to amd some lights. Really no issues with current setup, especially if lights have been converted to fluorescent or led.

Even with all that said, adding an EV at 30A is not going to work unless you have a way of preventing the AC and EVSE from operating at the same time. Enter the Dryer buddy/DCC/SimpleSwitch type device.
 
There Are Rules About How Much Load One Can Put On A Panel. It's in the National Electric Code or whatever they call it in Canada.
That’s why you do a load calculation. I hired an electrical contractor to do the load calculation and I was able to run a 30amp 240volt line to my EVSE on my 60 amp service. Buy you need to run the numbers. Each house is different. The electrical contractor derates appliances based on a formula. In my case, my air conditioner was on a 20 amp circuit and the rest of the house had 75 1-1/2” LED ceiling lights using a total of 750 watts.
You can get 30 amps for your EVSE from 70amp service but you need to run the numbers.
 
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What size is your A/C unit. On my 3 tons condenser, label mention a max breaker rating of 30A.
A 40A breaker means that you have either a very big condenser or/and it is not efficient. If accessible, you may want to check the label (usually on side of unit), it should list a MIN and a MAX breaker rating. Your A/C condenser breaker could be oversized!
Here are tables on the current consumption of A/C unit
 
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What size is your A/C unit. On my 3 tons condenser, label mention a max breaker rating of 30A.
A 40A breaker means that you have either a very big condenser or/and it is not efficient. If accessible, you may want to check the label (usually on side of unit), it should list a MIN and a MAX breaker rating. Your A/C condenser breaker could be oversized!
Here are tables on the current consumption of A/C unit
One things for sure, you can't just conclude that a 70 amp main with a 40 amp HVAC breaker leaves only 30 amps of breakers left. A capable electrician would do an analysis of all the appliances in the house and figure out the maximum demand in watts. That dictates the number and type of breakers. 200 amp panels aren't be limited to 10 20 amp breakers, for example, given that they have 40+ slots.
 
Uh, what? That's not really how that works in split phase systems. It's still only 30A on each side on each of the two 120V bus bars. Maybe there's some different thing you're trying to say with this statement that I'm not following.
How is it not? His 70A 240 service is one leg of 70A 120v and one leg opposite phase 70A 120v. So if he was running everything 120V and max capacity he could run 140A of 120v items, but only 70A of 240V items. Or am I missing something?
 
I have 60A mains. 80% of that is 48x2=96A.
Gas stove, gas water heater, dryer and furnace.
Well pumps can use peak around 35A draw for a few seconds, then around 10A.
Then you want to add up all the other things that may get used to sort out peak. Space heater, air fryer and anything else that might push it.

After several charges I determined 20-25A was more than enough to charge the car overnight. I can crank it to 48A if needed if we need to shorten the time. I just determined I need to watch out for a perfect storm of appliance use.
 
I have 60A mains. 80% of that is 48x2=96A.
Gas stove, gas water heater, dryer and furnace.
Well pumps can use peak around 35A draw for a few seconds, then around 10A.
Then you want to add up all the other things that may get used to sort out peak. Space heater, air fryer and anything else that might push it.

After several charges I determined 20-25A was more than enough to charge the car overnight. I can crank it to 48A if needed if we need to shorten the time. I just determined I need to watch out for a perfect storm of appliance use.
Um, you need to check your calculations. 80% is only for constant loads like EV charging. Not sure why you are using it to calculate total panel load. And when you multiply by 2 that is 120v. Your well pumps are likely 240 so 60-35 = 25A 240. Which should equate to 2 25A 120 legs. Or 50A of available 120v.

It would seem your electrician should not have put a 60A EV charger breaker on a panel with a 60A main panel breaker if you also have a 35 or 40A well pump breaker. Even if that’s 120 that’s equivalent 20A 240. If you are charging at 48A when your well kicks on you will tripmthe main breaker.
 
Um, you need to check your calculations. 80% is only for constant loads like EV charging. Not sure why you are using it to calculate total panel load. And when you multiply by 2 that is 120v. Your well pumps are likely 240 so 60-35 = 25A 240. Which should equate to 2 25A 120 legs. Or 50A of available 120v.

It would seem your electrician should not have put a 60A EV charger breaker on a panel with a 60A main panel breaker if you also have a 35 or 40A well pump breaker. Even if that’s 120 that’s equivalent 20A 240. If you are charging at 48A when your well kicks on you will tripmthe main breaker.
Well Pump is at (2) 20A.

I had similar questions when I had this setup; as when I was personally adding it up I felt like there could be a perfect alignment that might trip a main. I haven't tripped one over 14 years now. Power company came back and said my demand was 4.2kW (pre-car) and I can see the meter now shows 7.9KW demand. If I calculated that right (doubt it) its around 32A peak demand. I remember one of them saying it was 3 phase but it was over a year ago so the memory is sketchy.
 
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Well Pump is at (2) 20A.

I had similar questions when I had this setup; as when I was personally adding it up I felt like there could be a perfect alignment that might trip a main. I haven't tripped one over 14 years now. Power company came back and said my demand was 4.2kW (pre-car) and I can see the meter now shows 7.9KW demand. If I calculated that right (doubt it) its around 32A peak demand. I remember one of them saying it was 3 phase but it was over a year ago so the memory is sketchy.
3 phase to your panel would be unlikely in a residential setting, and your larger equipment would have 3 pole breakers (3 breaker slots tied together). If you had it, you’d know as you’d likely be paying more. If you are in condo it could be 3 phase to the condo and split to single phase for each dwelling. More common in larger buildings. If it is split 3 phase, yiu likely have 208V which is 38A vs 33A at 240V.
 
How is it not? His 70A 240 service is one leg of 70A 120v and one leg opposite phase 70A 120v.
Sure. If you considered it as one single 240V circuit, then it is 70A on each side.
So if he was running everything 120V
...which is not what we were talking about and isn't happening, so isn't very relevant.
So if he was running everything 120V and max capacity he could run 140A of 120v items, but only 70A of 240V items.
OK, sure.
Or am I missing something?
Possibly. Or there is some miscommunication somehow. You said this:
And the 30A available you speak of is 30A 240 which is 60A 120.
That is literally not so. You seemed to be stating that a 240V 30A circuit is pulling 60A from only one side single bus bar. And that is definitely not what happens in split phase panels. That's drawing 30A on each side, not double that from only one side.
 
All right. I'm going to admit something: Up to this minute, I wasn't really sure how the breaker on a 240 VAC mains breaker works. See the below picture:
1648486837114.png

So, note that a Standard house picks up three wires from the pole transformer:
  1. A Hot, 120 VAC with respect to Neutral, at 0 degrees. (It's a sine wave, so sue me.)
  2. A Hot, 120 VAC with respect to Neutral, at 180 degrees. (That is: When #1 is going up, #2 is going down.)
  3. A Neutral.
Say you've got a 100W lamp plugged into the wall. The NEMA5-15 socket has Neutral on one blade and #1 or #2 on the other, so it's 120 VAC across the blades. Current flows in on the Hot (more or less, yeah, it's AC), and out on the Neutral. When one goes outside the house with a clamp on ammeter, and say we're playing with #1 HOT, then, when somebody flips the switch and turns the light on, one will see 0.83A additional on #1 Hot and 0.83A additional on the Neutral, and #2 Hot will Not Change.
So, take a look at that picture. There's not a breaker on the Neutral: There's a double-pole breaker on the Mains breaker, with each pole passing Line1 or Line2.
Implication: Say that that's a 100A Mains Breaker. Run 150A on Line 1 and Neutral, but not Line 2, and the breaker should trip. Run 150A on Line 2 and Neutral, but not Line 1, and the breaker should trip. Implication: There's actually two physical breakers in that Mains Breaker, and if either one of them trips, they both trip.
So: Run 150A on Line 1, 150A on Line 2, and no current on the Neutral (which is the way it works with a 240 VAC load: It's 120VAC to neutral on each Line, but 240 VAC from Line 1 to Line 2), and both of the breakers in the Main Breaker trips and it pops open.

One more bit of interest. So, on a standard breaker panel, say one is looking at breakers, vertically, and the wire coming out of single, 120 VAC breakers. Starting at the top, the output of the first breaker will (picking one) be Line 1; the output of the next breaker down will be coming from Line 2. The next breaker's output will be from Line 1 again, and so on, all the way down.
So, say one has three 100W lightbulbs turned on in different areas of the house. Depending upon completely random wiring, all three might be on Line 1; all three might be on Line 2; or there could be one on Line 1 and two on Line 2; or, finally, two on Line 1 and one on Line 2. In other words, all over the map and depending upon how the wiring electrician was feeling that day. (Any real electricians who feel like chiming in right now, have right at it.)

So, imagine that one has a 60A main breaker. And, for some insane reason, one has seventy 1A loads turned on in the house. (That's 70 120W lightbulbs or the equivalent: Kind of insane. But there are such things as 500W lightbulbs.) In principle, if one manages to pick the Right Sockets, one will pop the Main Breaker since it will have 70A on it. Or not: If one manages to get a 50/50 split on Line1 and Line 2, there will be 35A on each Line - and the breaker won't pop.

Deep breath, worst case. Say one puts in a 40A 240 VAC breaker pair in there and hooks it up to a Tesla. The Tesla does its thing and draws 32A on Line1 and 32A on Line2, simultaneously, and nothing on Neutral. How much headroom we got before the Mains at 60A pops?
Well, there's two breakers in there on Main, each is 60A, so 60-32 = 28A. On each.
So, say one has the Air Conditioning. the A/C is high power, so everybody likes to run 240 VAC to that thing. Say it's got a 30A breaker on it; max load would be 80% of that, so 24A. On each of the two Lines.
So, 28+24 = 52A. that leaves, with our 60A breaker, 60-52 = 8A.
100W lightbulbs, coffee makers, refrigerators, and the garbage disposal.. if the lights are running, the microwave is running (1500W!), and somebody is doing the dishes and runs the disposal, and Pop! goes the Main.
And now one knows why the Electricians were giving the OP a shifty look.
 
Sure. If you considered it as one single 240V circuit, then it is 70A on each side.

...which is not what we were talking about and isn't happening, so isn't very relevant.

OK, sure.

Possibly. Or there is some miscommunication somehow. You said this:

That is literally not so. You seemed to be stating that a 240V 30A circuit is pulling 60A from only one side single bus bar. And that is definitely not what happens in split phase panels. That's drawing 30A on each side, not double that from only one side.
No, I said that in terms of total load for load calculations, 30A 240v is the same as 60A 120v. We are talking about load calculations, not how electricity works.