70amp main breaker - what can I install?

[Mrbrock]

Hi

I've been reading to a lot of various topics in this forum about Teslas and I finally ordered a LR MY myself last month, it won't come for a long awhile but it's ok I can wait. I finally decided to create an account so I can ask questions here and hopefully can get some insights.

I've been contacting various licensed and one non-licensed electricians recently. I live in a condo and only have a 70 amp main breaker (pic attached, I'm unit#A). The one non-licensed electrician came and said I can install a NEMA 14-50 with no problem and gave me a quote (which is cheapest out of all the ones that came). Then the other licensed electricians came in various times in the next few days and each came to my place and look at the panels, three of them saids the max I can do is 14-30 without tripping the circuit (14-50 is not possible they said) and the last one came yesterday and said he wouldn't even risk doing a 30amp if I hired him and tell me to just stick with a 5-15, it would most likely trip the circuit or maybe worse.

Am I really out of luck? Anyone else have a similar situation like me? 5 electricians came, and they all gave a different answer. I'm so frustrated and this has cause so much anxiety. My dream would be to install a 14-50, but I would be ok to go with a 14-30, just not the 5-15. I just want to get the fastest without burning down my house.

Your sub panel is also full, with almost all tandem breakers for lights and plugs. Finding circuits that can be combined and create enough space for a 2 pole GFCI breaker might be an issue. This may force you towards the Wall Connector since it won’t need the GFCI breaker. Or you look at 30A 120V (TT-30) which would require some adapters to use but would provide 2x the speed of 15A circuit. Your sub panel may decide what you can do.

 

[RandyS]

With whatever solution your licensed electrician advises you to pursue for charging, given the look /condition of the breakers in your photos, I would also consider having them replace all of your existing breakers at the same time. Breaker lifespan isn't forever, and yours look like they're on the downhill side age-wise. My two cents worth for safety. You want those breakers to trip properly when the time comes...

 

[ChrisMPK]

Looks like you are in Monterey Park? Are you in a house or condo? Which electrician did you used to install your's?

I'm in a house. I installed my own wall connector (x3 at various locations). They are installed in the most un-licensed fashion possibly so I can't help with a referral.

The point above about not having space for a GFCI breaker is a good one. Space, not just amperage, is likely going to be an issue in your panel. I'm always on team HPWC. Save the mobile connector for your trunk.

 

[Mrbrock]

If you are willing to spend the money, the best solution is to have a fresh panel installed with more spaces and new breakers which will give you security and flexibility. But then your costs are going to increase. I am surprised none of the licensed electricians mentioned the lack of space being an issue and needing a GFCI breaker for your 14-30/50 outlet. It is code to install a GFCI breaker for garage circuits so they would have had to consider where they would add it. Do you have physical copies of any of the quotes explaining what their process will be?

 

[mashimaro1628]

If you are willing to spend the money, the best solution is to have a fresh panel installed with more spaces and new breakers which will give you security and flexibility. But then your costs are going to increase. I am surprised none of the licensed electricians mentioned the lack of space being an issue and needing a GFCI breaker for your 14-30/50 outlet. It is code to install a GFCI breaker for garage circuits so they would have had to consider where they would add it. Do you have physical copies of any of the quotes explaining what their process will be?

Sorry, I just didn't post every single details, I was frustrated during the whole process. Out of the 6 electricians, 3 did recommend to replace the panel, but like you said, the price jumps so much. Two of them said it's not necessarily needed to replace it (one of them being the one who isn't willing to even install a 14-30 and told me to stick with 5-15, he said my panel is fine as it is).

I'll PM you their wordings, don't want to clog up the topic.

 

[Rocky_H]

(one of them being the one who isn't willing to even install a 14-30 and told me to stick with 5-15,

I've got a few thoughts. First is: the 5-15 suggestion is dumb. Panel capacity is by amps, so if you can spare a 15A circuit, you can do a 240V 15A circuit. It doesn't have to be a really low power 120V one.

You're running into a problem I see from a lot of people on this forum where they start off asking the wrong question, so they get confusing and difficult answers.

When you start off with "I want a 14-50." That's what they have to go on as the demand, and you're going to get a mix of: OK or that's not going to work or well, I can do it, but it's going to require these expensive upgrades.

It's usually easier to start off with this question:
"Do a load calculation of my house and electrical service and tell me how many spare amps of capacity are available for a new circuit."

Then, they will need to give you a number answer. And for your case, that might come in with a 20A or 30A circuit being possible to add.

 

[Mrbrock]

Sorry, I just didn't post every single details, I was frustrated during the whole process. Out of the 6 electricians, 3 did recommend to replace the panel, but like you said, the price jumps so much. Two of them said it's not necessarily needed to replace it (one of them being the one who isn't willing to even install a 14-30 and told me to stick with 5-15, he said my panel is fine as it is).

I'll PM you their wordings, don't want to clog up the topic.

Thanks for sending those. Rocky has a couple good points which mirror what I sent you directly. Your initial question led a few of the quotes in the wrong direction. However, 2 of them also provided questionable quotes and I’ll ask the group here what they think of this.

Install 14-50 receptacle on new circuit max 30A. Is this legal? Or should they be installing 14-30?

Also, does anyone make a 40-30 quad gfci breaker?

4 out of the 5 either quoted a panel upgrade or suggested it as an option. If you can keep,your current panel by using the wall connector, at $500 it’s way cheaper than a panel upgrade. Unless you have other electrical needs where a larger panel with more spots might be preferred.

 

[gfunkdave]

Install 14-50 receptacle on new circuit max 30A. Is this legal? Or should they be installing 14-30?

No, a 14-50 needs to go with a 50A or 40A breaker. The 40A is allowed because there's no such thing as a 14-40 outlet. On a 30A breaker you'd use a 14-30 outlet (if you have a neutral) or a 6-30 outlet (if you have no neutral)

 

[Tronguy]

No, a 14-50 needs to go with a 50A or 40A breaker. The 40A is allowed because there's no such thing as a 14-40 outlet. On a 30A breaker you'd use a 14-30 outlet (if you have a neutral) or a 6-30 outlet (if you have no neutral)

And, just to mention:

1. If one has a 14-50 outlet, the Tesla Mobile Connector will draw at most 32A. This is strongly suspected to be because Tesla doesn't know if one has a 40A breaker or a 50A breaker in the wall, and they opt for safety (max current draw = 80% of breaker/wire/socket rating, so 80% of 40A = 32A.)
2. If one has a Tesla Wall Connector or Juicebox or some such, there are switches or setup or something where one tells the bitty electronics in the box what kind of breaker one has connected to the box. So, if one had a TWC hooked up to a 14-50 and there really was a 50A breaker in the box, between the TWC and the car the maximum current would be set to 80% of 50A, or 45A. Or, if one is hardwired to a 30A breaker (or whatever) one would set the switches/configuration/what-have-you to say one has a 30A breaker, and the TWC (or whatever) and car would limit the maximum current to 80% of 30A, or 24A. You get the idea.

It is possible to set the maximum current draw in the car. This.. allows.. for, say, using a NEMA14-50 with the TMC and, say, a 30A breaker back there. With the TMC's adapter, the car would try to draw 32A, and might get away with it. So one could set the car to the correct value (80% of 30A = 24A) and things would be safe.

For a value of, "safe" I totally don't agree with. Make a mistake with the setting one day, or somebody else plugs their car in, or Pick Idiot Move, and one's house can burn down. I prefer the, "impossible to shoot oneself in the foot" approach, myself, so would, in this case, ditch the NEMA14-50 for some NEMA type whose current rating (and breaker and wire) actually are 30A. The TMC would be using a 30A adapter and it would be pretty much impossible to overcurrent the socket/wire/breaker. Better safe than sorry any day.

 

[Rocky_H]

Install 14-50 receptacle on new circuit max 30A. Is this legal? Or should they be installing 14-30?

No, a 14-50 needs to go with a 50A or 40A breaker. The 40A is allowed because there's no such thing as a 14-40 outlet. On a 30A breaker you'd use a 14-30 outlet (if you have a neutral) or a 6-30 outlet (if you have no neutral)

Ugh. I hate having to give this answer, but I have followed that one down through code, and I believe it is actually allowed. However, it's kind of weird and dumb to do it, so just don't when you have real options of matching them, like a 30 to a 30.

There is a chart in NEC that shows what ratings of outlets are allowed to be put on what ratings of circuits, and that's where people are getting that, but the chart says it is for when there are MULTIPLE outlets on one circuit. That is not the case here, where EV charging circuits must be dedicated, with only one outlet. So the specification for that is just that the breaker must not be higher rated than the outlet. But it can be lower. So it does seem to be allowed to put on a 50A outlet type but have it on a 20 or 30 amp circuit with a 20 or 30 amp circuit breaker.

There are some pieces of equipment, like air compressors and things that are built for smaller circuits, like 20A, but come with 6-50 or 14-50 plugs. So this I think is meant for wider compatibility within a shop where maybe they do have a few things that need to be plugged in and out, so they may put in a higher capacity 14-50 on a 50A circuit, and everything can plug into that. But if you just have the one smaller thing, they seem to allow this 50 on a 20 so people don't have to cut off and change the plug on their air compressor if that's the only thing the outlet is for.

So it seems kind of weird but makes some sense in a way that it's on the safer side of things. You don't allow the breaker higher, because it would allow too high current for the wire and be a heat or fire risk. If you allow the breaker to be smaller, that's hyper protecting, and then if someone tries to use it for higher level things, it will keep tripping and people will realize they need to redo it as a higher level circuit.

 

[Mrbrock]

Also, the GFCI breaker issue is non-existent because CA doesn't use 2020 NEC.

 

[jcanoe]

Per the 2017 NEC: GFCI required for garage circuits (since 1978.)

 

[Mrbrock]

Per the 2017 NEC: GFCI required for garage circuits (since 1978.)

Not for 240V from what I can find. Just 120V.

"The National Electricity Code says that GFCI-protected outlets are required for garages. Your local building codes will also state that outlets must be GFCI. This change to the code took effect back in 2008 for all 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-amp outlets. GFCI’s are also required according to the International Residential Code, or IRC."

https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/NECFAQ20.pdf

Important: Please refer to the 2020 National Electrical Code for detailed information

1. 210.8(A) GFCI Protection for Personnel: Dwelling Units
The changes in 210.8(A) will result in all 125‐volt through 250‐volt receptacles installed at dwelling units supplied by single‐phase branch circuits rated 150‐volts or less to ground be provided with ground‐fault circuit‐interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel. During the 2020 NEC cycle it was substantiated that 250‐volt receptacle outlets present similar shock hazards as 125‐volt receptacle outlets. This change will impact the typical 240‐volt receptacle outlets for cord‐and‐plug connected dryers, ranges, ovens or similar appliances. This new addition of 250‐volt receptacles, and the removal of any ampere limitation, will require GFCI protection for commonly used receptacle outlets in the specified areas of 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11):

Bathrooms, Garages and Accessory Buildings, Outdoors, Crawl Spaces, Basements, Kitchens, Sinks, Boathouses, Bathtubs and Shower Stalls, Laundry Areas, Indoor Damp and Wet Locations.

 

[Rocky_H]

Also, the GFCI breaker issue is non-existent because CA doesn't use 2020 NEC.

That's not correct. You are talking about the very big expansion of GFCI use for a lot of general purpose outlets in the 2020 code.

But the specific requirement was put in the 2017 version of NEC that California uses that ANY outlet being installed for the purpose of charging an electric vehicle MUST use a GFCI breaker. That's in section 625 that is all about EVs. So yes, this is applicable and is very much an issue.

 

[Mrbrock]

That's not correct. You are talking about the very big expansion of GFCI use for a lot of general purpose outlets in the 2020 code.

But the specific requirement was put in the 2017 version of NEC that California uses that ANY outlet being installed for the purpose of charging an electric vehicle MUST use a GFCI breaker. That's in section 625 that is all about EVs. So yes, this is applicable and is very much an issue.

Ah, ok. That's good info to know. Saying all garage circuits require GFCI, therefore a 14-30 plug in the garage requires GFCI is incorrect. What you have said is the correct reference. What happens if an outlet is installed for a dryer and is later used for EVSE? Does it need to be retrofited? For the quotes the OP received, none of them mentioned needing GFCI.

Seems like a dedicated EVSE, whether Tesla Wall Connector or other is the best way to go.

 

[loan-potato]

Per the 2017 NEC: GFCI required for garage circuits (since 1978.)

Thank you for posting that. I was wondering what circuit the outlets in my garage are on. Now I know because my house was wired with a single GFCI, guess to save costs.

 

[jcanoe]

Thank you for posting that. I was wondering what circuit the outlets in my garage are on. Now I know because my house was wired with a single GFCI, guess to save costs.

Are you sure that you are not seeing a whole house surge protector (an entirely different device), not a GFCI circuit breaker?

 

[loan-potato]

Are you sure that you are not seeing a whole house surge protector (an entirely different device), not a GFCI circuit breaker?

I don’t have any GFCI breakers. I only have one GFCI plug in the master bathroom. The rest of the outlets in wet locations are chained off that one. I don’t know why they did that. Surely the extra copper wire it took to do that cost more than another GFCI outlet.

 

[Rocky_H]

What happens if an outlet is installed for a dryer and is later used for EVSE? Does it need to be retrofited?

No. Plugging a device into an outlet is just a thing a person does. It does not invoke electric code. That 625 section is saying an outlet that someone is currently installing has to comply with these code checks. And part of that check is what the purpose for installing it is.

For the quotes the OP received, none of them mentioned needing GFCI.

Yeahhh... We seem to hear about that pretty often. It seems like the whole section 625 about EVs is a section a lot of electricians didn't bother learning about or skimmed and don't remember the details. It's kind of new and isn't related to most of their regular building work, so it seems to get missed or forgotten or overlooked a lot.

 

[Mrbrock]

No. Plugging a device into an outlet is just a thing a person does. It does not invoke electric code. That 625 section is saying an outlet that someone is currently installing has to comply with these code checks. And part of that check is what the purpose for installing it is.


Yeahhh... We seem to hear about that pretty often. It seems like the whole section 625 about EVs is a section a lot of electricians didn't bother learning about or skimmed and don't remember the details. It's kind of new and isn't related to most of their regular building work, so it seems to get missed or forgotten or overlooked a lot.

Well, 2020 NEC fixed that by requiring it for all outlets in a garage. Once all states adopt the 2020 NEC that is...