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70D and Winter Performance/Range
- Thread starter RockinWithKids
- Start date
In real MN winter you should be very pessimistic about range. It is not only the cold, but also the frequent wind. Here are some data from one of my posts last year - albeit in a P85D. I can promise you there was no lead-foot driving, and cabin temp was a modest 65-67F. As you will see, the best was 370 Wh/mi (tail-wind), the worst 560 Wh/mi (head-wind). All these on 19" wheels. Based on my experience:
1. I am counting on ~450 Wh/mi in normal driving (~70 mph, cabin temperature 70F) at anything below 30F.
2. If I need to get a round trip to Twin Cities (~170 mi) I have to reduce speed to 65 and cabin temp to 65F to make it with some spare - this gets me at ~400-420 Wh/mi. Snowing or very windy = no trip for me.
If you think battery usage is ~7% better with non-performance over performance cars (270 EPA in 85D vs 253 EPA with P85D), that gives you ~420 Wh/mi in comfortable driving and ~380 Wh/mi in must-go-there driving. I presume you can use only ~60 KWh out of your 70 KWh battery (you may check this with 70D owners), giving you a range of 143 mi (comfortable) or 157 mi bundle-your-jacket style.
Of course you can beat these numbers if you drive slower and do not heat your cabin. But we are talking realistic comfortable driving here.
I would strongly encourage you to get the 85D if you plan to do any longer winter trips in MN. If and when superchargers are ubiquitous, that may change.
Not yet a great answer to the OP, but I am leaving for a trip of ~165 miles each way for this weekend and will make the same trip next weekend. Current forecast is for lows above 60, but should be cooler next weekend giving a decent idea of how a 70D will do on same route in different temperatures. I will post updates that are hopefully useful to extract the range loss due to cold weather.
While this was at approx 70 degrees, I am expecting to make the same drive next week in colder temps. 162 miles exactly of driving yielded the following stats. 52.4kwh used at 324Wh/mi. 193 rated miles consumed. We had range mode on, and drove through some rain. Autopilot was set to 72 for most of the trip. I will post more information, and hopefully we can get an idea of what colder temps will do to a 70D. FYI, net elevation gain was just under 500 feet.
It's not just about net elevation change. I can go up a hill and down a hill with no net elevation change, but use a lot of charge.
I had a 500 mile trip night, the last leg of the trip was 102 miles, the car said I needed 152 miles to get the trip planner to show 0% at the destination. It was a lot of ups and downs and I don't hypermile, so my wh/mi weren't great (around 350, probably. Compared to 243 wh/mi on the first leg, due to traffic not letting me go faster than 45mph)
travwill
Active Member
I don't have any solid stats or data but I would say now that it is cold, 30s in Chicago, 20s at times and soon even lower, the car has pros and cons, and the 70 needs to be considered carefully if in cold weather climates.
1. I'm using the car preheating, subzero, and keeping it usually at a comfy 74 setting. For city driving this isn't a big deal at all. It goes draw 500-700 average watts per mile though and eats up a lot of range in shorter trips.
2. I notice the range dropping/hitting the most when I go on lots of stops - e.g. it gets a bit cold again and reheats, etc. Never been an issue though.
3. Some days I drive say 10 to work, 10 back, then 40 somewhere and back, no issues. Was supposed to be 100 miles I'd say total rated, but ends up instead of dropping from 210 (90% charge) to 110, may drop to like 95-100 instead remaining. That is a lot of driving more me as most days it is just 40 or less miles running around I'd say for sure.
4. On road trips once you get going it seems like you'll be more efficient in the long-run, but at that point then the cold weather, wet roads, and size of the 70 pack would start to worry me. Our superchargers are definitely not as abundant in the mid-west so if I did take trips to cities say 2-3 hours away often, then I'd probably want to get a 90D to be safe and more comfortable. Even then it doesn't buy you too many more miles but would definitely help. I'd also suppose you'd be doing less total cycles on the battery so it should last a bit longer than the 70 if driving more also.
But in short, no issues at all in Winter so far with 70D. It is a great handling car (with winter tires on it) and extremely comfortable with the preheating. I will say though that (just though of it) the wipre heater element on windshield doesn't help much in icy weather, and rear window elements do work, but take a while. I really wish a car with this large of a rear window and slope had a rear wiper system somewhat - you'll definitely be scraping the back window often it seems.
-T
1. I'm using the car preheating, subzero, and keeping it usually at a comfy 74 setting. For city driving this isn't a big deal at all. It goes draw 500-700 average watts per mile though and eats up a lot of range in shorter trips.
2. I notice the range dropping/hitting the most when I go on lots of stops - e.g. it gets a bit cold again and reheats, etc. Never been an issue though.
3. Some days I drive say 10 to work, 10 back, then 40 somewhere and back, no issues. Was supposed to be 100 miles I'd say total rated, but ends up instead of dropping from 210 (90% charge) to 110, may drop to like 95-100 instead remaining. That is a lot of driving more me as most days it is just 40 or less miles running around I'd say for sure.
4. On road trips once you get going it seems like you'll be more efficient in the long-run, but at that point then the cold weather, wet roads, and size of the 70 pack would start to worry me. Our superchargers are definitely not as abundant in the mid-west so if I did take trips to cities say 2-3 hours away often, then I'd probably want to get a 90D to be safe and more comfortable. Even then it doesn't buy you too many more miles but would definitely help. I'd also suppose you'd be doing less total cycles on the battery so it should last a bit longer than the 70 if driving more also.
But in short, no issues at all in Winter so far with 70D. It is a great handling car (with winter tires on it) and extremely comfortable with the preheating. I will say though that (just though of it) the wipre heater element on windshield doesn't help much in icy weather, and rear window elements do work, but take a while. I really wish a car with this large of a rear window and slope had a rear wiper system somewhat - you'll definitely be scraping the back window often it seems.
-T
Agreed. Using your numbers you provided (thanks!) and others that have commented on TMC and Facebook group I have basically factored in the following as a worst case scenario:
Usable battery: 60kWh (~85% usable of the 70kWh battery pack)
Worst anticipated Wh/mi: 550 Wh/mi
Thus, the absolute worst range I am anticipating for a 70D is:
108 miles w/ 100% charge
87 miles w/ 80% charge
Questions in my logic above:
1. Is 550 Wh/mile to conservative for a worst case scenario?
2. Is 85% usable battery to conservative?
Last edited:
grichard
Member De-Luxe
Here in St. Louis this week, I've found that my range is affected greatly by the height of the water over the road.
Of course, if the water gets high enough, your range depends on whether you want to travel with the river's current, or against it.
Of course, if the water gets high enough, your range depends on whether you want to travel with the river's current, or against it.
Pinarello
Member
I have a 70D that I received a few weeks ago. I recently completed a roundtrip from the Chicago suburbs to the Milwaukee suburbs (about 200 miles total). It was in the mid 20's F and fairly windy. I did a 100% charge right before leaving and preheated the vehicle. The car was idle for several hours during a meeting before my return trip. I took country roads so my speed varied between 65 mph and 50 mph with some stop and go for traffic lights, etc. I don't recall the exact range remaining when I got home, but it was somewhere around 20 miles.
Knowing the trip would be tight, I used the seat heater, kept the cabin temperature around 66 degrees and turned off the cabin and seat heaters on occasion, but they were not off that much because it got too cold for my liking. I also drove conservatively and used the cruise control whenever I could. When I left the Navigation system tried to route me to the Super Charger in Milwaukee, but I choose to ignore the advise and risk it. I passed by enough J1772 chargers on my way home that I could stop if I became overly concerned about making it.
Knowing the trip would be tight, I used the seat heater, kept the cabin temperature around 66 degrees and turned off the cabin and seat heaters on occasion, but they were not off that much because it got too cold for my liking. I also drove conservatively and used the cruise control whenever I could. When I left the Navigation system tried to route me to the Super Charger in Milwaukee, but I choose to ignore the advise and risk it. I passed by enough J1772 chargers on my way home that I could stop if I became overly concerned about making it.
On my most recent trip I went about 170 miles in 25-30F degree weather.
I started off at the Centralia, WA supercharger with an almost 100% charge (probably 99%) and my destination was the Amtrak Station in Vancouver, WA. I only intended to charge to 90%, but my passenger was shopping.
Anyways on the way down the average speed was about 75MPH (a good portion of it has a 70MPH speed limit and I set TACC at 75). My side of the cabin was set to 72F, and the passenger side was set to 82F. I didn't have my heated seat on, but the passenger had theirs at 3. I believe my energy usage was somewhere at 370-380 Wh. I only briefly glanced at it though.
After dropping my passenger off in Vancouver I normalized the cabin temp back to 72F, and turned off all the heat seating. The trip planner said I'd have about 6% battery left when I arrived back in Centralia. So on the way back I slipped behind a semi doing 65MPH. The TACC setting was set at 5 so i was pretty far away. I stayed behind him until the trip planner said I'd have 10% left. Then I set the speed to 70MPH, and left the comfort of the semi. I believe my average usage was somewhere around 320Wh.
I arrived at the supercharger with 8% left.
Compared to the same journey when its warm (50-70F) it takes a heck of lot more energy to do it. During the summer I don't ever recall needing to charge to 100% to do a 170Mile trip with approx 10% of buffer.
I started off at the Centralia, WA supercharger with an almost 100% charge (probably 99%) and my destination was the Amtrak Station in Vancouver, WA. I only intended to charge to 90%, but my passenger was shopping.
Anyways on the way down the average speed was about 75MPH (a good portion of it has a 70MPH speed limit and I set TACC at 75). My side of the cabin was set to 72F, and the passenger side was set to 82F. I didn't have my heated seat on, but the passenger had theirs at 3. I believe my energy usage was somewhere at 370-380 Wh. I only briefly glanced at it though.
After dropping my passenger off in Vancouver I normalized the cabin temp back to 72F, and turned off all the heat seating. The trip planner said I'd have about 6% battery left when I arrived back in Centralia. So on the way back I slipped behind a semi doing 65MPH. The TACC setting was set at 5 so i was pretty far away. I stayed behind him until the trip planner said I'd have 10% left. Then I set the speed to 70MPH, and left the comfort of the semi. I believe my average usage was somewhere around 320Wh.
I arrived at the supercharger with 8% left.
Compared to the same journey when its warm (50-70F) it takes a heck of lot more energy to do it. During the summer I don't ever recall needing to charge to 100% to do a 170Mile trip with approx 10% of buffer.
Babasnoopy
Member
Here in Boston we finally have dipped into the 30's and I've been off since Christmas as my company shuts down this past week. With only small cold battery trips, my wh/mi are in the 400's. I've been almost thinking something was seriously wrong until I briefly turned off the HVAC last night during an errand, and my usage dropped right down to almost exactly Rated Range. This scares me a bit for the long cold winters we have in the northeast. I don't crank the heat, but I'm also not one to keep the car like an ice box in the name of efficiency. For those that have done a few winters, is an average in the 400's normal?
travwill
Active Member
I think in very cold weather and if you keep the cabin comfy, say 72+, your going to see an average in the 500s+.
Babasnoopy
Member
ERP
Ludicrous Member
P85D, drove it from Colorado Springs to Breckenridge the back way, route 24 to 9. I drive this once or twice a month. There is some significant elevation gain. But during the summer I can make it round trip without charging in Breckenridge. This was the first cold weather trip up and the energy usage was significantly higher than the summer or fall.
119 miles, 50 mph average, the temperature ranged from 35 F to -17 F, most of the trip was around 0 F.
Energy usage was 423 Wh/mi.
For some portions of the trip, climbing up hill with sub-zero temps, The 30 mile average energy usage was 580 Wh/mi.
119 miles, 50 mph average, the temperature ranged from 35 F to -17 F, most of the trip was around 0 F.
Energy usage was 423 Wh/mi.
For some portions of the trip, climbing up hill with sub-zero temps, The 30 mile average energy usage was 580 Wh/mi.
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