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70D range vs 85 dealer says they are almost the same range

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Gfoxsteve, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. Gfoxsteve

    Gfoxsteve Member

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    Anyone got any real numbers or experience.

    due to my budget and wanting certain spec like air suspension etc I really need an inventory car with the discount to meet my budget. The dealers struggling to find an 85 that meets my spec and budget and they are saying I wouldn't notice the range difference between the 70D and the 85

    is this just sales talk or is the later design 70D more efficient than the 85
     
  2. tom66

    tom66 Member

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    70D range = 240 miles EPA
    85 range = 265 miles EPA

    Real world about 85% of that at 70mph.

    The real difference on the motorway probably isn't that significant.

    The dual motor improves the motorway / high speed efficiency at a slight cost to city efficiency (10-40 mph) of about 2-3%. Motorway range is most important, given that is the typical use of longer range.

    Note the 70D supercharges slower than the 85 because the 70D has a 350V battery and the 85 has a 400V battery. I think the difference is the 70D is around 20% slower.
     
  3. smartypnz

    smartypnz Member

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  4. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    As I understand it, the "D" adds range on the highway while reducing it in the city so the EPA numbers are the same. Your actual usage will determine which is better.

    The battery capacity difference between the 70 and 85 is not that much--at best about 20% but practically about 15% (WAG numbers).

    Whether you will notice the range difference or not depends on where you drive and the distance driven between charges. For example, if you regularly commute 50 miles a day, both will be equal except in unusual circumstances. If you take a lot of trips, some of which can't be done 100% using Superchargers, you'll want every electron you can get your hands on.
     
  5. Gfoxsteve

    Gfoxsteve Member

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    Tom thanks for that. My main concern is motorway miles as I have to do a lot of long journies in the UK. Sorry for being think but at motorway speeds will I get 240 and 265. Also I read about the batteries not charging to 100%, does this mean I get less than 240 and 265 miles.
     
  6. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Tesla recommends against charging to 100% daily if you don't need to (you have a 20 mile commute for example) but if you need the range it is there.

    How much range do you need for most of your driving with these trips? Are Supercharges along the way?
     
  7. Gfoxsteve

    Gfoxsteve Member

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    I have a number of trips I need to do at around 200 miles, there are super chargers en route so hopefully a quick coffee can top me up.

    probably my bigger challenges are visits to customers around 120 miles away and don't have a supercharger enroute so doing there and back in a day could be full of range anxiety.

    i am trying to use the car as a rep mobile with a tight schedule, my main interest is trying to understand if the 85 will truly give me an extra 25 miles on motorways against the 70d or is the 70d better range for the types of journey I do...
     
  8. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    With your driving usage I would actually consider an 85D or 90D. The 240 mile round trips with no charging in cold weather might not be possible depending on how fast you drive.
     
  9. Gfoxsteve

    Gfoxsteve Member

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    Where can I find all of the eps ranges??

    - - - Updated - - -

    Epa range even...
     
  10. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    You should be able to find them all at epa.gov
     
  11. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #11 dsm363, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
    Check out Tesla's website. It will be there.
     
  12. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    From very extensive UK motorway driving I have la habit of driving 80-90 mph there most if the time. If you drive that way you will have an effective range of roughly 200 miles in an 85, probably 180 or so in a 70D. In normal use you will not go below 20% battery nor above 90%, leaving you with a normal usable range of about 70%, so your range needs to reflect that lower usage.

    Given that, if you can be disciplined on a motorway you can get effective range much higher than that. Driving at a steady 60 mph will allow you to achieve regular range of 240 miles or more in a 70D and 300 or so in an 85. Just a few days ago I drove my P85D 301 miles and still had 22% battery left, although I had charged to 100%.

    Still another caveat is needed. Range is temperature and weather dependent. Cold weather reduces range, as does inclement weather.

    Finally, were I making day trips of 120 miles and return I would find a way to charge at my destination. Luckily in the UK almost any electrical outlet will provide a minimum of 220v/13a, with 240v/30a pretty common in office locations also, IIRC. You will successfully charge to 80% or more with four hours or so even in the lower power version. Prior to buying any Tesla I recommend ensuring that you can find a solution to that issue.
     
  13. Magus

    Magus Member

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    If I read correctly you have Supercharger access. As long as you have that you will be fine. Take your food breaks when supercharging. I find that with my 70D it charges fast enough to reach the next destination while getting food. At one stop as the sole customer of a frozen yogurt shop, my 70D had enough charge when I sat down to eat.
     
  14. Troy

    Troy Member

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    #14 Troy, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    Gfoxsteve,

    You can find EPA rated range numbers on fueleconomy.gov website. HERE is a link that shows all Tesla models. Ignore the numbers for 90 kWh versions. These haven't been updated yet and they show the same numbers as the 85 kWh versions. Because some regulations, Tesla can't sell the 90 versions without EPA numbers, so they use the old numbers until the tests are complete.

    Outside North America Tesla doesn't use EPA rated range. Therefore the UK version of Tesla website doesn't show EPA numbers. When you have your car, the car will not show EPA numbers. Instead it will show typical range and NEDC rated range, whichever you prefer. Most people prefer typical range because it is much more realistic. For example, these are the range numbers for S85:

    248 miles typical range
    265 miles EPA rated range
    310 miles NEDC rated range

    The sales person is wrong. The 70D and S85 do not have about the same range. Your idea to look at EPA rated range to compare 70D to S85 is an excellent idea. Like Tom said the numbers are 240 EPA for 70D and 265 EPA for S85. Tom said real world range is about 85% of that at 70mph. I agree. Based on lifetime average energy consumption data from a survey, real world range is 83% of EPA rated range on average. That means 199 miles realistic range for 70D and 220 miles for S85. Another difference is supercharge times. Here is a video:



    Two important details you need to consider are degradation and speed. In terms of degradation, what you need to know is, battery capacity will drop to 95% at 37,000 miles. Then it will stay at 95%. That means your realistic range in 70D will drop from 199 to 189 miles and in S85 from 220 to 209 miles.

    I don't think 240 miles will be possible without charging even in 90D when driving at motorway speeds (I assume 80 mph in the UK). 90D will have 286 EPA when tests are complete according to my calculation. Realistic range will be 237 miles at 70 mph. You would have to slow down to 65 mph. As you might know speed is the most important factor that affects range. In your situation 70D or S85 are not the best options. It would be better to consider 90D.


    EPA rangeRealistic range at
    70 mph (83%)
    Realistic range at 70 mph after
    degradation settles at 37,000 mi
    70D240 mi199 mi189 mi
    85265 mi220 mi209 mi
    85D270 mi224 mi213 mi
    90D286 mi*237 mi226 mi
    * my calculation
     
  15. ev-soon

    ev-soon Member

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    #15 ev-soon, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
    Indeed I was just going to raise temperature as an issue. I do not have a MS yet, but do have a 200 mile per day planned use (no superchargers) here in CO that is a challenge without 'range charging' - at least in winter. Don't forget a/c will ask chip away at range. 85kWh would seem sensible to me - especially as range will reduce over the life of the battery too don't forget. But you're going to b driving carefully - well below the speed limit to avid r a nge anxiety on that 240 mile round trip I think.
     
  16. No2DinosaurFuel

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    So it looks like there is not much difference between the models after the degradation settles. I guess all I need is the 85D for the AWD performance and handling and the extra 4 miles of range over the S85! hahah.
     
  17. Rprp

    Rprp Member

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    Something to consider is the weather in the UK. In my P85 I can get around 350 real-world km's at 120km/hr (75 miles/hr) when the weather is ok: 20 celsius or more, no wind.

    If there is any rain, wind or temperatures of 5 celcius or less my range will be noticeably less - around 20%. And the weather outside of the summer is always like this in the Netherlands.
     
  18. trader

    trader Member

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    Any extra range is really worth taking. As Troy mentions, battery degradation is very important to consider.
    I'm simplifying but by getting an 85 you are certain to have at least the range of a new 70D still available a few years down the road.
     
  19. davidc18

    davidc18 Member

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    I have the 70D and at 90% I start the day showing 211 miles. The actual useable range at 70-80 is much lower. With your needs I would look at getting the 90. I also think the single motor have much better range then the D models.
     
  20. Lanber

    Lanber Member

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    I find the adverticed range as in "Rated range" to be a joke in real world. You get on avarage 80% of that. 50-70% if wet, cold and speeding. The latter being the real killer.
    For driving 240 miles return trip without charging you ideally need a 90D and charge it to 100% before you leave.
    But then if you have access to a 16A plug (car will draw 13A) while you`re there you can help out on the range by about 8 miles pr hour plugged in.

    Charging to 100% isnt all that bad, charging to 100% in hot weather and letting the battery sit with high SOC is bad.

    I have driven Model S since september 2013

    - - - Updated - - -

    D vs singel engine:

    The D models have lower consumption and hence higher range on highway speeds. This due to 2 smaller more efficient engines and torque sleep on the rear engine while the front engine also has a higher gearing ratio.
     

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