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70D vs 85D comparisons are classist

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by Magus, May 30, 2015.

  1. Magus

    Magus Member

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    Wow, a few of the comments are quite amazing. Am coming from the standpoint that I can afford a 75-80ish car, but with somewhat greater financial prudence that an 85D with similar features is out of my price range. Some of the comparisons basically amount to my phallus is bigger than yours. A few times these discussions go beyond neutral facts in helping someone decide how to go on things. If someone does more road tripping, then of course the 85D makes more sense. If someone has more than adequate money it makes sense to do so. To differentiate the 70D as a city car and the 85D as a road tripping car is a ludicrous comparison when the average supercharger is maybe 100 miles apart.

    For $10,000:
    -one can take 20 $500 flights
    -rent a gas car for a trip, come out far cheaper, and make the trip in significantly shorter time than any 85D could dream of
    -at least a couple of international trips
    -many accessories and features

    One person commented how the 70D now would be comparable to the model 3. Buddy, when the model 3 is out, well presumably have ranges well over 300 miles. With those next gen batteries, Teslas will be increasingly more capable. The new low end Model S? Unless you have money to burn tens of thousands on depreciation, I would hate to feel your ego.

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    For $10k, I could have 28 towings - for running out of range on the 70D vs the 85D on trips. Except, you know, you would have to work at making it happen. It would take a very long time for any reasonable person to ever reach that figure
     
  2. kuttakamina

    kuttakamina Member

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    I typed a longer reply, but here is the short version - people in general are nice. Don't be so sensitive.

    Now back to technicals :) ..

    First of all, As far as Model 3 being = to Model S, I disagree. An old 7 series BMW is not the same as a new 3 series, is it?

    Secondly, Superchargers are frequently greater than 100 miles apart, as much as even 250 miles.
    And if your trip is Home (A), SC1 (B), SC2 (C), SC3 (D), and Destination (E) . then D to E .. cannot be > 100 miles, if you have only 250 miles of juice in the tank (assuming 50 miles spare to zip around town and cushion).
    70D won't cut it in that circumstance I feel. 85D will. Also, the supplemental network (plugshare/chargepoint/blink/destination charging) etc. are not reliable or fast enough.

    10K is a lot of money. I agree. I first ordered 85D, then changed to 70D, and after some interaction and education from people smarter than me here, I've finally settled on 85D.
    I don't like blowing 10K for no reason, but I felt I'd get more out of my Model S for the extra 10K. So I did it.

    I hope I didn't come across as show offy, I'm sorry if I did. I really am. Do private message me so I can improve, I'd appreciate it very much.
     
  3. eye.surgeon

    eye.surgeon Member

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    Magus, your financial analysis has a glaring flaw. You need to look at cost of ownership, not purchase price. Much of the premium for the bigger battery will be recovered when sold.
     
  4. travwill

    travwill Member

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    Perhaps true as well. But you do have to notice that even with the CPOs it seems the highest in P85s depreciate the most/way more than standard 85s, 85s somewhat less, and 60s have depreciated the least at this point in most of the CPO cars I've seen online. That's a good thing as they all tend to do pretty well, except maybe the P85 losing so much value so quick - but super high end cars all do that as well or worse (e.g. Aston Martin, BMW 7, etc.).
     
  5. Magus

    Magus Member

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    Kutta, actually it wasn't directed at your posts.

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    eye.surgeon, I wouldn't call my post a financial analysis.
     
  6. kuttakamina

    kuttakamina Member

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    I really need to stop raising my hands involuntarily everytime I see a cop. :-/
     
  7. Magus

    Magus Member

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    #7 Magus, May 30, 2015
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
    Hehe. Ok so I admit that using the word classist is overly dramatic. Never thought there would be consternation over getting an $80ish car. A new 85D is simply out of financial reach. I could technically do it, but financially would not be smart. It wasn't for finances, it would be 85D for sure. On the other hand, 60 owners seem to be happy with their cars abd the range works for them from what I've read.

    Gah can't seem to be able to remove classist from the title.
     
  8. kuttakamina

    kuttakamina Member

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    70D = 85D .. if you're never going to leave town or use the acceleration, is the best way to put it.
     
  9. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    OP, you're my hero.

    P.S. I've said from day one that for $10k, I'll take my wife's gas SUV on road trips, assuming I need those extra 30 miles and still come out way ahead.
     
  10. kuttakamina

    kuttakamina Member

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    Travwill, what wh/mi are you getting in your 70D?
    What is your driving style? (leadfoot, hills?)
     
  11. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

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    Are you saying the extra 30 miles prevents an out of town road trip?

    Theres a thread that shows the 70D having 240 miles fully charged, that's plenty of range to leave town (in parts of the country with SpC)
     
  12. No2DinosaurFuel

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    For those who say i can use the saved money to buy airplane tickets or get towed or use the ice suv to go on road trip. I ask you then why get a tesla? It doesnt seem like you like to use it that much.

    You rather fly--- ok if you really get board of road trips then sure. I am sure for some situtation i would use the plane.

    You would drive your ICE SUV--- so you dont like using the tesla for road trip? If this is your goal might as well go for the S60 CPO. Save more money. And seriously are you going to still keep that ICE around if you have the tesla?

    You would get towed on road trips--- ummm what a waste of time and money. I hate to be stranded just so i can used the money i save from not buying the 85D and getting the 70D.

    I am not saying you shouldnt get a 70D, but you have to take into consideration what you give up. IMO, it is a lot and especially when the tesla is meant to replace my ICE, that extra range can and does wonders and is well worth the $10K. If the 70D was a 75D at the same price then maybe it might not be worth the upgrade to the 85D, but a 15KWh hit is significant enough anyway you see it.
     
  13. travwill

    travwill Member

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    Lets end this thread - it is turning out to be ridiculous and a waste at this point. To each his/her own. The 70d is great, the 85d is great, etc. Just depends on what you need really. I think I've driven 99% of the least 10 years here in Chicago within the city, burbs within 50/60 miles, at most have done 100 miles then 100 back, and would be fine with either car. The 70 is what drew me in as seemed like great range for the price. The price is still high though, with tax my 70d is 100K. I don't consider myself skimping out on the 85, just getting a car that is going to meet 100% of my needs I'd say, also knowing that I'll probably want a new Tesla with whatever improvements come in 3+ years or so.

    :)
     
  14. kuttakamina

    kuttakamina Member

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    Okay No2DinoFuel pointed me to this, and I did a huge amount of research.
    The summary is this,

    70D is better and more efficient in-town, 85D is more efficient on highways.
    EPA ranges reflect mostly in town driving.
    Highway driving is where you NEED range, within city you are always around chargers anyway.

    If highway driving is what you desire, the real range difference will be around 40 miles (Tesla says 30mi, but thats EPA, in town, No2dinofuel says 50mi which is a bit high IMO, lets split the difference - 40).

    So yes, if long drives is your "requirement", then 85D is almost a necessity.

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    And thats another way to look at it.
    If in town is your main requirement, and you are okay with taking an alternate means for long distance - then 85D is not worth it.

    This guy for instance is quite depressed that he went for the $10K over the 70D.

    To each their own I say.
     
  15. Magus

    Magus Member

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    Was being facetious about having extra money for towing.

    The charge point chargers show active, inactive vs occupied status on he app, so I'm not sure I would worry all that much about being in a likely occasional or rare pinch.

    Road tripping can be fun, but no time to do road tripping. Regardless the 70D is a capable road tripping car - especially as superchargers and other chargers advance.

    My my local Tesla rep was talking about planning an S60 trip cross country. They actually made it just fine. There was a supercharger gap that the 85D couldn't overcome. You would add time vs a 60 of course, but any ICE car would blow the doors off the time vs both the 85 and 60.

    The 70D is capable of road trips and isn't a town car- especially when you can take a 60 cross country.

    The highway range of the 70D is actually 244-245. There is a document somewhere with that figure. Having an 85D isn't a necessity for most people. Saying the 70D is a town car is patently false. I would be getting a Leaf if the 70 was a town car.
     
  16. kuttakamina

    kuttakamina Member

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    Travwill, we can end this thread once you tell us your WH/Mi. c'mon spill the beans buddy :)

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    <-- Not reliable :)
     
  17. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    The question was never about which car is better. The question for a lot of people is if the better car is worth $10k more. It's that simple, and each person will have their own answer/circumstances.
     
  18. kuttakamina

    kuttakamina Member

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    I hope Elon Musk is reading this thread, and comes to the obvious conclusion that KuttaKamina is an awesome guy and will be a great ambassador for Tesla.
    And decides to give me a free P85D out of sheer decency and respect, which I would of course graciously accept.
    That'd be an awesome car I think. Best car for my circumstances!

    So ........ travwill, are you gonna make us beg for your wh/mi?
     
  19. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

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    Since you obviously directed this at me.I honestly don't know if I'm going to like taking the EV on roadtrips. With little kids, the goal is to get door to door ASAP.

    Why not get a CPO? I want AWD and TACC.

    And yes, we're keeping the SUV, there are two adults, and soon we'll have two 7-person vehicles.

    Happy?
     
  20. Canuck

    Canuck Active Member

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    No one has mentioned the likely reason the 60 is gone. We know from the research that the lower state of charge that you keep a lithium battery (but not empty), the lower it will degrade. In fact, if you keep it at a low state of charge, and low temperature, it will degrade very little, even after many years. Plus, we know that higher states of charge, and higher cycles of charge, are bad for degradation. With a 60 you needed to keep it charged higher, and cycle it more, unless you're not doing a lot of driving. So the 70 makes more more sense when it comes to years down the road and that may be one of the reasons that the 60 is gone for good. Tesla may be thinking long term and not wanting a bunch of low range cars out there after accounting for battery degradation. Upping it just a bit perhaps does wonders for preventing degradation, after looking at the research much of which is relatively new. So when comparing a 70 to an 85, the 85 allows for a lower state of charge, and less cycling, making it a much better choice in the long term, especially if you plan to keep your car for many years. Plus, it's a lot quicker at Superchargers since you can pour electrons in much faster because you don't need to taper as soon as you do with a 70. Remember, folks, these batteries degrade. While you may save $10k now, new batteries are not cheap, and I doubt they will be even after the gigafactory starts producing.
     

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