75/100D & P100D MX HP?

[Fellsteruk]

Hi,

So i was asked today what the Horsepower equivalent of the MX was and after looking on the Tesla site its not something they really talk about and other sources online seemed to vary wildly.

I know the 75D and 100D are the same except for a little extra weight on the 100D but whats the HP on these I read online that each motor was about 256hp on each axle with the P having a 500+ HP on the rear but what does that actually translate too as an average HP?

I looked around the forum but couldn't find an obvious answer

 

[mxnym]

The certificate of origin for my 8/2017 MX100D lists H.P. (S.A.E.) as 443.

ETA: Also, I wouldn't be 100% certain the 75D is the same. I know it has the same motors, but when you choose the energy display on the dash (like a tachometer, only with KW instead of RPM), I believe the 75D has a lower max than the 100D.

 

[Krash]

The cars have a "max power" setting from the factory that limits them. You can see the setting estimates here.

X75D went from 290kW to 360kW when it got uncorked. X100D went from 375kW to 400kW.

I don't have any XP100D data but the SP90DL to SP100DL went from 455kW to 540kW.

This link says 575kW for the XP100DL.

(1 kilowatt = 1.34 hp)

If you are wondering how the acceleration times are so different between the cars, the performance cars have significantly higher torque settings.

 

[Fellsteruk]

Thanks Guys

 

[Peteski]

The cars have a "max power" setting from the factory that limits them. You can see the setting estimates here.

X75D went from 290kW to 360kW when it got uncorked. X100D went from 375kW to 400kW.

I don't have any XP100D data but the SP90DL to SP100DL went from 455kW to 540kW.

This link says 575kW for the XP100DL.

(1 kilowatt = 1.34 hp)

If you are wondering how the acceleration times are so different between the cars, the performance cars have significantly higher torque settings.

Sounds about right based on their absolute and relative performance. X75D is fractionally slower than X100D to 60 mph, even though it weighs about 150 kg less. Considering these beasts are close to 2,500 kg, they must have around 500 ish hp to achieve that sort of acceleration. So 483 hp for the X75D and 536 hp for the heavier X100D seems reasonable, given their 4.9 s and 4.7 s 0-60 mph times respectively.

 

[David29]

The cars have a "max power" setting from the factory that limits them. You can see the setting estimates here.

X75D went from 290kW to 360kW when it got uncorked. X100D went from 375kW to 400kW.

I don't have any XP100D data but the SP90DL to SP100DL went from 455kW to 540kW.

This link says 575kW for the XP100DL.

(1 kilowatt = 1.34 hp)

If you are wondering how the acceleration times are so different between the cars, the performance cars have significantly higher torque settings.

I kept a spreadsheet of Tesla's advertised horsepower, torque, 0-60 times and some other statistics, for use at car shows. At some point, Tesla stopped publishing figures for horsepower and torque. But what my data (from September 2016) showed was that the original advertised values for the S75D were 328 HP (BLMMSP) and 387 ft-lbs of torque, from two motors each rated at 259 hp. The "BLMMSP" designation was Tesla's term for "Battery Limited Shaft Horsepower," meaning that was the maximum amount of power the battery could deliver, regardless of the motor ratings. They adopted this term and published the BLMMSP data after complaints that the advertised horsepower of the performance cars was incorrect, presumably because it was based upon the motor ratings and not what the battery could deliver. So, the figure of 290 kW does not match the figures I had -- that corresponds to 388.6 hp. Just curious then, what was the source of the 290 kW figure?
I do not have figures for the "uncorked versions" -- I have not seen any data from Tesla on those.
As for the 100 kW cars, I am not aware of any Tesla advertised values for those cars, except for 0-60 times.

 

[Krash]

...what was the source of the 290 kW figure?...

That is the car's self reported figure from the API.

 

[mxnym]

It seems unlikely to me that the certificate of origin has the wrong number on it... The kW figure from the API might be the battery's output, not the motor's. Of course, efficiency loss between an ICE and the wheels (due to transmission +joints and such) might be similar to loss between battery and wheels (due to transforming electricity + joints and such). I don't know if HP measurement requirements are standardized at any particular point for any particular type of vehicle, but the measurements could be different between ICE vehicles and EVs. For instance, in the US, I believe ICE vehicles are usually marketed with HP numbers from the flywheel (prior to efficiency loss) vs the drive wheels (actual dyno numbers), but I don't know which numbers are included on their certificates of origin.

 

[Yinn]

The certificate of origin for my 8/2017 MX100D lists H.P. (S.A.E.) as 443.

If it's S.A.E. then it's a certified figure, this seems pretty safe to use as it's a figure that is independently verified. J2907 is the standard in which electric powertrain/motors are bench tested. J2908 is in vehicle testing.

With that said, in both standards, it requires a test of continuous maximum power over 30 minutes at specific environmental and battery (coolant) temperatures. The goal is more consistency of the measuring stick rather than measuring maximum peak hp. This means that the Tesla could make significantly more HP such as in the state of Ludicrous mode; but because it would not be able to sustain that power over 30 minutes; would not be able to advertise it as an SAE figure. But since this is the standard measurement; this would be true universally.

It seems unlikely to me that the certificate of origin has the wrong number on it... The kW figure from the API might be the battery's output, not the motor's. Of course, efficiency loss between an ICE and the wheels (due to transmission +joints and such) might be similar to loss between battery and wheels (due to transforming electricity + joints and such). I don't know if HP measurement requirements are standardized at any particular point for any particular type of vehicle, but the measurements could be different between ICE vehicles and EVs. For instance, in the US, I believe ICE vehicles are usually marketed with HP numbers from the flywheel (prior to efficiency loss) vs the drive wheels (actual dyno numbers), but I don't know which numbers are included on their certificates of origin.

https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Electric-Power-Calculations-Wayne/dp/0071362983
1 electrical hp = 746w, @Krash was right in that 1kW (1000W) then would be equivelant to 1.34hp. It's a standard method of measurement used for all sort of electrical motors. So at a peak 400kW on a 100D, that would be equivelant to ~536hp.

The one thing we haven't discussed and taken into account as well is motor type. We have a DC battery with an AC induction motor, so we have to take into account power factor. (Which I don't actually have specs on) The 1kW = 1.34hp number assumes a power factor of 1.0; which is achievable on DC motors; but not AC induction motors. According to this blog post (Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors) it also states AC induction motors generally achieve no better than 85%.

So if we factor that into the calculation; 400kW = 536hp. SAE rating of 443hp would indicate the approximate power factor for a Model X is 83% which is in line with the Tesla article. So if we applied this to a X75D; it would be 360kW = 482hp; with a .83 power factor to have an estimated 400 SAE hp.

But what my data (from September 2016) showed was that the original advertised values for the S75D were 328 HP (BLMMSP) and 387 ft-lbs of torque, from two motors each rated at 259 hp. So, the figure of 290 kW does not match the figures I had -- that corresponds to 388.6 hp. Just curious then, what was the source of the 290 kW figure?

So if we did the same for yours or a corked version. 290kW = 389hp and multiplied by a power factor of 0.83; that equals ~323hp. If we compare that to the published 328hp number; it's within the 2% variance (1.7% off) allowed by SAE for publishing.

 

[David29]

The certificate of origin for my 8/2017 MX100D lists H.P. (S.A.E.) as 443.

ETA: Also, I wouldn't be 100% certain the 75D is the same. I know it has the same motors, but when you choose the energy display on the dash (like a tachometer, only with KW instead of RPM), I believe the 75D has a lower max than the 100D.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "Certificate of origin?" I am not aware of having seen or received a document with such a name when i got my car (or any other car).

 

[mxnym]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "Certificate of origin?" I am not aware of having seen or received a document with such a name when i got my car (or any other car).

I believe it is a document that is required in order to title a new vehicle. IIRC, the BMV (in Indiana, we have a BMV, I believe most other states have a DMV) keeps it when you apply for a title. So, if you've only ever bought used (as was my case prior to this vehicle), you would never see one. It provides specifications necessary for title such as:

• Date (of transfer to dealer [also date of manufacture in Tesla's case])
• Invoice number
• VIN
• Model Year
• Vehicle Make
• Body Type
• Shipping Weight (my 7 seater was 5483 lbs)
• H.P.(S.A.E.)
• G.V.W.R. (max loaded weight, mine was 6878 lbs)
• Number of cylinders (Electric - 0)
• Series or Model (Model X)

It further certifies all of that information with a paragraph stating as much and provides the dealer info (AFAIK, all Tesla vehicles are technically sold from the same CA dealer).

Finally, in a separate sentence, it certifies that the buyer's purchase was the "first transfer of such new vehicle in ordinary trade and commerce" and in Tesla's case, has an image of Elon Musk's signature as the authorized representative.

 

[David29]

I believe it is a document that is required in order to title a new vehicle. IIRC, the BMV (in Indiana, we have a BMV, I believe most other states have a DMV) keeps it when you apply for a title. So, if you've only ever bought used (as was my case prior to this vehicle), you would never see one. It provides specifications necessary for title such as:

• Date (of transfer to dealer [also date of manufacture in Tesla's case])
• Invoice number
• VIN
• Model Year
• Vehicle Make
• Body Type
• Shipping Weight (my 7 seater was 5483 lbs)
• H.P.(S.A.E.)
• G.V.W.R. (max loaded weight, mine was 6878 lbs)
• Number of cylinders (Electric - 0)
• Series or Model (Model X)

It further certifies all of that information with a paragraph stating as much and provides the dealer info (AFAIK, all Tesla vehicles are technically sold from the same CA dealer).

Finally, in a separate sentence, it certifies that the buyer's purchase was the "first transfer of such new vehicle in ordinary trade and commerce" and in Tesla's case, has an image of Elon Musk's signature as the authorized representative.

Thanks. I do not think I ever saw it, but I could be wrong. I leased my car, so the bank may have it rather than me. Plus, the Tesla service center provided the service of "running" to the Registry of Motor Vehicles to obtain the registration and plates, not me, so they may have delivered the document to the RMV directly.

 

[mxnym]

Plus, the Tesla service center provided the service of "running" to the Registry of Motor Vehicles to obtain the registration and plates, not me, so they may have delivered the document to the RMV directly.

This sounds most likely). I doubt the lease is why, as I have a loan, but I went to the BMV myself.

 

[DCGOO]

Thanks. I do not think I ever saw it, but I could be wrong. I leased my car, so the bank may have it rather than me. Plus, the Tesla service center provided the service of "running" to the Registry of Motor Vehicles to obtain the registration and plates, not me, so they may have delivered the document to the RMV directly.

Most people never see it. But it (sort of) serves as a title, before the vehicle is first titled. You might see it if you buy a new vehicle from an out of state dealer. Otherwise the dealer pushes it through to the titling authority (your State BMV), part of the “documentation fee.” I would think you could ask for a copy of the document.