75D - May-Oct 2016 vs Late Oct+

[Saabstory88]

For the past couple years, my wife and I have operated with a fleet of a Model 3, Nissan Leaf, and a Volvo Wagon. With the current pricing on CPO model S's we've decided to consolidate the later two vehicles into a 75D. With the duty cycle we plan to use this car for, having AP1 vs AP2+ isn't as important a factor, we already have FSD in our 3, and we have a solid grasp of the limitations of AP1.

With cars coming off lease this winter, we want to understand the other differences between the cars other than autopilot, and what other gotchas may exist between the early facelift HW1 and HW2 cars. Are there any significant differences between the packs? Charge rates? What other items may have been revised?

We would like to spend under $40k, which seems easily achievable with the AP1 cars, but if there are other compelling reasons other than autopilot, in terms of reliability, efficiency, or longevity, we would like to know.

For reference, our full search criteria are: Facelift 2016, or early 2017, 75D, springs, 19's, next gen seats, sub zero package. We have no other make or break options. I have at this point excluded pre facelift 90Ds, because I understand they have pack degregation issues. I

 

[BigNick]

2016 Model S | Tesla
Even adding $2K to ship it to Pittsburgh, it's under $40K.
AP1 is more limited feature-wise, but seems to handle that basic feature set better than AP2 and higher. I see tons of "phantom braking" complaints about AP2+ cars, but rarely experience it on my AP1 car.

 

[Saabstory88]

2016 Model S | Tesla
Even adding $2K to ship it to Pittsburgh, it's under $40K.
AP1 is more limited feature-wise, but seems to handle that basic feature set better than AP2 and higher. I see tons of "phantom braking" complaints about AP2+ cars, but rarely experience it on my AP1 car.

Definitely been eyeing that one. Again, I'm quite familiar with the AP differences. I'm really trying to find out about any other things that have changed when AP was switched. So, excluding autopilot, what else changed on the cars in late October 2016?

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Definitely been eyeing that one. Again, I'm quite familiar with the AP differences. I'm really trying to find out about any other things that have changed when AP was switched. So, excluding autopilot, what else changed on the cars in late October 2016?

We took delivery of 4 Model S vehicles in June 2016, December 2016, March 2017 and December 2017.

• I think the only different we noticed between the June 2016 car and the December 2016 car was the AP hardware. The battery was also a new revision and didn't degrade as quickly as the earlier battery.
• Between the December 2016 and March 2017, they changed the seats, eliminated leather, added a rear passenger seat sensor and removed transferable FUSC.
• Between March 2017 and December 2017, they upgraded from AP2 to AP2.5. They changed the rear seat and the white interior was changed to have a black lower dash instead of a white lower dash.

This site has a lot of history: Model S - Options by Year - Tesla Motors Club Wiki

Nothing much changed between June 2016 and October 2016.

 

[Saabstory88]

We took delivery of 4 Model S vehicles in June 2016, December 2016, March 2017 and December 2017.

• I think the only different we noticed between the June 2016 car and the December 2016 car was the AP hardware. The battery was also a new revision and didn't degrade as quickly as the earlier battery.
• Between the December 2016 and March 2017, they changed the seats, eliminated leather, added a rear passenger seat sensor and removed transferable FUSC.
• Between March 2017 and December 2017, they upgraded from AP2 to AP2.5. They changed the rear seat and the white interior was changed to have a black lower dash instead of a white lower dash.

This site has a lot of history: Model S - Options by Year - Tesla Motors Club Wiki

Nothing much changed between June 2016 and October 2016.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for! So when exactly is the battery changeover? Do you happen to know which letter revisions those were?

 

[ucmndd]

So, excluding autopilot, what else changed on the cars in late October 2016?

Nothing.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for! So when exactly is the battery changeover? Do you happen to know which letter revisions those were?

The battery in the December 2016 S90D was 1088790-00-A. I'm not certain but I think the June 2016 battery was 1063792-00-A.

I know they went through several different 90 kWh battery revisions from 2016 to 2017.

 

[ucmndd]

The battery in the December 2016 S90D was 1088790-00-A. I'm not certain but I think the June 2016 battery was 1063792-00-A.
I know they went through several different 90 kWh battery revisions from 2016 to 2017.

OP seems to be asking about 75Ds - I don't believe there are any well understood or publicized 75kwh battery differences in the date range they're talking about.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

OP seems to be asking about 75Ds - I don't believe there are any well understood or publicized 75kwh battery differences in the date range they're talking about.

Yeah, our first the Model S were 90D. The last one was a 75D. I do know that some of the 75 kWh batteries had a larger capacity than others but I think those all went to Europe.

 

[Saabstory88]

OP seems to be asking about 75Ds - I don't believe there are any well understood or publicized 75kwh battery differences in the date range they're talking about.

So to dig deeper into the 75D pack longevity... I see that Tesla Tap estimates that after 120k miles, we would see a 100% range of 240 miles, or somewhere around 67 kWh remaining. Is this pretty accurate? With 72.5 kWh originally usable, that would put it's EPA average around 280 wh/mi? I routinely beat the rated consumption in my 3 and Leaf. Are the S's consumption estimates hopelessly optimistic, or should I still be able to realize a similar trend with my driving style? Even 180 mi usable range is plenty for what I need, so I'm more just seeking information rather than trying to justify a larger pack size.

 

[ucmndd]

So to dig deeper into the 75D pack longevity... I see that Tesla Tap estimates that after 120k miles, we would see a 100% range of 240 miles, or somewhere around 67 kWh remaining. Is this pretty accurate? With 72.5 kWh originally usable, that would put it's EPA average around 280 wh/mi? I routinely beat the rated consumption in my 3 and Leaf. Are the S's consumption estimates hopelessly optimistic, or should I still be able to realize a similar trend with my driving style? Even 180 mi usable range is plenty for what I need, so I'm more just seeking information rather than trying to justify a larger pack size.

My real, but anecdotal, numbers for a Dec 2016 S75 RWD at 115,000 miles:

100% Charge: 219 rated miles (down from 249 when new, so ~12% degradation)
My average wh/mi since the beginning has been 315. No particular effort to be efficient, and I do live in a mountainous area that comes with a bit of an inherent efficiency hit.

The 75D is more efficient, and started with a higher EPA range (259 vs. 249), so I think you can do a bit better than both of those numbers.

Based on what I've seen in terms of degradation I think expecting 240 range miles at 120k is on the high side. 230 is probably more realistic.

 

[Saabstory88]

My real, but anecdotal, numbers for a Dec 2016 S75 RWD at 115,000 miles:

100% Charge: 219 rated miles (down from 249 when new, so ~12% degradation)
My average wh/mi since the beginning has been 315. No particular effort to be efficient, and I do live in a mountainous area that comes with a bit of an inherent efficiency hit.

The 75D is more efficient, and started with a higher EPA range (259 vs. 249), so I think you can do a bit better than both of those numbers.

Based on what I've seen in terms of degradation I think expecting 240 range miles at 120k is on the high side. 230 is probably more realistic.

Thanks for the reply. How diligent have you been in terms of keeping the battery in the happy daily SoC range? Done much supercharging? Does the S always calculate against rated range, or is that 219 based on your consumption?

 

[MorrisonHiker]

So to dig deeper into the 75D pack longevity... I see that Tesla Tap estimates that after 120k miles, we would see a 100% range of 240 miles, or somewhere around 67 kWh remaining. Is this pretty accurate? With 72.5 kWh originally usable, that would put it's EPA average around 280 wh/mi? I routinely beat the rated consumption in my 3 and Leaf. Are the S's consumption estimates hopelessly optimistic, or should I still be able to realize a similar trend with my driving style? Even 180 mi usable range is plenty for what I need, so I'm more just seeking information rather than trying to justify a larger pack size.

Our S75D has 62k miles and 100% charge is 236 miles, down from 256 miles. That's about 6.6% degradation. It has been Supercharged a lot. Our S100D 100% charge is currently 325 miles, down from 335 miles, so about 3% degradation. It's been Supercharged less than 50 times.

When driving the S100D to work, I regularly got 180 Wh/mile on the way to work since traffic moved just a little slower than the speed limit for half of the 17 mile commute. On the way home, it averaged closer to 300 Wh/mile. Our lifetime average for the 12/2016 S90D was 303 Wh/mile IIRC. The S100D is 308 Wh/mile. I'd have to check on the S75D but it's below 300 Wh/mile.

I would suggest getting the largest battery that you can afford. Larger batteries can Supercharge faster and should degrade slower since they don't go through as many charging cycles. Our S100D can Supercharge at close to 200 kW but I think our S75D maxes out around 130 kW now.

 

[SilverGS]

My real, but anecdotal, numbers for a Dec 2016 S75 RWD at 115,000 miles:

100% Charge: 219 rated miles (down from 249 when new, so ~12% degradation)
My average wh/mi since the beginning has been 315. No particular effort to be efficient, and I do live in a mountainous area that comes with a bit of an inherent efficiency hit.

The 75D is more efficient, and started with a higher EPA range (259 vs. 249), so I think you can do a bit better than both of those numbers.

Based on what I've seen in terms of degradation I think expecting 240 range miles at 120k is on the high side. 230 is probably more realistic.

Interesting to see your numbers - I guess the major difference is that your mileage is higher than mine.

My anecdotal numbers are
2016 75 D with approx 37 k miles
245 miles rated range at 100% charge
No particular effort to be efficient either - I get about 321 wh/mi

 

[Saabstory88]

Our S75D has 62k miles and 100% charge is 236 miles, down from 256 miles. That's about 6.6% degradation. It has been Supercharged a lot. Our S100D 100% charge is currently 325 miles, down from 335 miles, so about 3% degradation. It's been Supercharged less than 50 times.

When driving the S100D to work, I regularly got 180 Wh/mile on the way to work since traffic moved just a little slower than the speed limit for half of the 17 mile commute. On the way home, it averaged closer to 300 Wh/mile. Our lifetime average for the 12/2016 S90D was 303 Wh/mile IIRC. The S100D is 308 Wh/mile. I'd have to check on the S75D but it's below 300 Wh/mile.

I would suggest getting the largest battery that you can afford. Larger batteries can Supercharge faster and should degrade slower since they don't go through as many charging cycles. Our S100D can Supercharge at close to 200 kW but I think our S75D maxes out around 130 kW now.

Thanks for the real world efficiency and degradation report. That's not too bad at all. This does not need to be our distance car, but I want to make sure that we are getting something which is in theory capable of reaching just about any supercharger. Our model 3 will probably continue to be, despite my preference for the Model S seats, our road trip car, and we will make sure that it's the one which has the largest battery we can afford, which means we will probably upgrade that again within a year or so. The 75D is really being slotted into a second car role, used 3/7 days a week, and only taking long trips every month or two when we both need to be out of town.

 

[ucmndd]

Thanks for the reply. How diligent have you been in terms of keeping the battery in the happy daily SoC range? Done much supercharging? Does the S always calculate against rated range, or is that 219 based on your consumption?

My usual duty cycle is a 120 mile commute that takes me from 90% to ~30% daily.

We've also traveled all over the Western US, I'd estimate ~10% of my miles are from Supercharging, and I've done 100% range charges in the "dozens" of times at this point. I've never really felt like there was anywhere I couldn't go, nor felt like making it to the next Supercharger was going to be a stretch. Of course YMMV based on supercharger proliferation in your neck of the woods.

Tesla range calculations are not affected by consumption/driving style, rather EPA rating based on available energy.

 

[ucmndd]

Our S75D has 62k miles and 100% charge is 236 miles, down from 249 miles. That's about 5% degradation.

75D had 259 rated miles when new, not 249...

 

[MorrisonHiker]

75D had 259 rated miles when new, not 249...

Looks like ours maxed out at 256 when new. I'll update my post above.