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8.1 AP2 MS - TACC did not see a bus stopping in front this morning!

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by JasJ, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. JasJ

    JasJ Member

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    As I don't have enough confidence on EAP yet on the city streets, I have felt relatively ok with using TACC in the morning commute. That changed this morning as the car was about to happily drive into the back of a bus this morning.

    I have attached a somewhat crummy picture AFTER I did an emergency stop. also no CAR 'crash' warning - which has worked fine before the latest FW update. You can see in the picture the 'bus' and the screen NOT showing the vehicle in front.

    First time in a month of driving that this has happened, but I have noticed since the last update over the weekend, that the car drives up close on silver cars and this morning totally missed the bus. As the bus drove away the display flickered on/off with the bus pulling away.
    20170404_090041.jpg
     
  2. mitchellh3

    mitchellh3 Member

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    Anytime I see a non-standard vehicle (motorcycle, bicycle, unique vehicle, tractor, bus, even semi trucks) I go on alert. I've witnessed flickering and not picking up of those types of vehicles before (whereas cars/SUVs are quite stable). Some improvement needed...
     
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  3. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    That's a very big obstacle that both radar and cameras should display a successful detection on the dashboard.

    Hopefully, AP2 will get better eventually.

    Thanks for the report and picture JasJ .
     
  4. croman

    croman Active Member

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    I've almost rammed a garbage truck. TACC lost sight of it and dove at it. I slammed the brakes but I was not impressed the camera missed it. Its a freaking giant metal truck. It saw it as 2 cars (radar) and then they started moving all over. This was a month an half ago. I still don't use TACC behind these kinds of trucks or buses (I also had an issue with a car carrier truck).

    With 2 cameras I would expect to do a better job. My situations were not in direct sun. OP seems to have had that contributing factor.
     
  5. TexLaw

    TexLaw Member

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    I'd bet that glaring sun had something to do with it. There is no doubt that AP2 still is a work in progress, but that should not be news.
     
  6. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    After the Florida accident's camera detection failure against a bright sky background , Elon concentrated on improving radar algorithm so glaring sun should not be a problem in this case.

    As you said, it's still a work in progress and we expect this scenario will be solved soon, but not just yet.
     
  7. RichardD

    RichardD Supporting Member

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    I noticed in my AP1 8.0 software that the sun absolutely wreaked havoc on my TACC.
     
  8. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    Some sensor should be designed so that the car can detect a large vehicle. It makes no sense that this is not working in 2017.
     
  9. trayloader

    trayloader Member

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    No, it´s actually the backlit situation which is causing the sensor to be overtaxed. But radar should work at least. Strange.
     
  10. zelig2

    zelig2 Member

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    Many times I see failure to detects occur with large vehicles. The higher they are raised off the ground the less likely AP2 will spot the vehicle. Since Tesla tries to spot two vehicles in front by bouncing the radar under the vehicle it seems as if AP2 can sometimes miss the first vehicle if it's too high.
     
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  11. electracity

    electracity Active Member

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    Isn't the primary purpose of forward radar to not hit vehicles?
     
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  12. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    Its secondary purpose is to not randomly slam on the brakes thinking that overhead signs or nearby cars are in your way. Getting the balance between the two is not easy, and the industry approach is to use vision/cameras to determine whether or not a radar reading is legitimate.
     
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  13. GlmnAlyAirCar

    GlmnAlyAirCar Member

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    Was the bus stationary? TACC will not always pick up stationary vehicles. It is documented as such. Unless this particular intersection is white listed, TACC can't be certain it is a vehicle as opposed to a street sign coming over a ridge in the road. I don't believe there has been any confirmation that whitelisting has been activated.
     
  14. bhzmark

    bhzmark Supporting Member

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    was the bus moving and locked on and in blue? or was it already stopped and not blue? And thus TACC may have thought that you would just drive around a parked vehicle?
     
  15. JasJ

    JasJ Member

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    The bus was slowing down to a stop due to traffic in the lane ahead. The car NEVER saw it until after I had come to a complete (anti-lock 'engaged') stop. Then it flickered in detection once or twice as it pulled away. It mostly didn't detect the bus at all, zero detection at approach, zero detection when both of us were stopped and only briefly as it pulled away.
     
  16. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Like how many times do i have to be right?

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    thi

    This entire thread is yet again another reason for lidar. Camera misses it because it haven't been trained with pictures of garbage truck or gets affected by the sun.
    radar misses it because its one dimensional and not reliable.

    You only need a split second for disasters to happen. Yet every one here retorts that lidar is useless.
     
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  17. Deans

    Deans Member

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    #17 Deans, Apr 4, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    I just had the same thing happen. I was not using TACC, but the car does not see moving buses!!!!
    I was behind a moving bus coming to a stop sign. The display showed nothing in front of me. The bus then moved forward with me following. Nothing registered. We were both moving at 25 mph and still nothing. Half a mile later, the bus turned left and then it registered as two cars briefly. This is insane. Someone is going to get killed because of Tesla's recklessness and lack of non-public testing. This product needs to be recalled.

    btw - this happened at night. Sunlight had nothing to do with it.
     
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  18. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    Consumerized LIDAR is not exactly what you're expecting it to be. A black or angled garbage truck back under bright direct sunlight is extremely challenging for LIDAR. And paper and garlic skin flying out of trucks can be misinterpreted for solid objects as well. Every technology has its tradeoffs. We're not saying LIDAR is useless, it's more that LIDAR is not the magic answer to every problem.
     
  19. jschwefel

    jschwefel VIN#1249

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    Thanks for posting. Sounds like we really should use these driver assist features cautiously. I was just driving a Toyota Yaris with lane keeping technology. Worked good most of the time, but sometimes it would let me drift into the next lane or off the road without beeping at me. o_O
     
  20. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Like how many times do i have to be right?

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    #20 Bladerskb, Apr 4, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    actually small object won't be misinterpreted in a lidar system. that's the point of a lidar. It has the precise 3d estimate of objects dimensions, distance and speed. its why it gets used for ground truth. its actually radar that will have problem with stuff flying out.

    No one is saying lidar only. What everyone out of the tesla circle is saying is that each sensor compliment and backs up the other deficiency.

    Camera is bad in dark, direct sunlight and can miss identifying objects.
    lidar has problem with snow, fog and rain.
    Radar can't tell how big an object is and can be easily clogged by snow/slush.

    each sensor picks up where the other sensor failed. thats the entire point.

    [​IMG]

    You don't want your life be relied on a radar false positive blacklist system when camera fails to recognize something (and it will fail!).
     
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