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8.1 AP2 MS - TACC did not see a bus stopping in front this morning!

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by JasJ, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    As far as I know the radar still can't see stopped objects by itself.

    So unless it has some additional data from the camera it can completely miss the bus. That isn't surprising if the sun is in the way.

    Now if the bus was indeed moving and the radar should have locked onto it then indeed there is something messed up.

    In any case you should email the autopilot team. I'm really hoping people aren't reporting here, and not emailing tesla as well. Just copy and paste it.
     
  2. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    I hit another case where TACC didn't catch the vehicle in front.

    While operating on TACC, I got behind a driver that was riding on top of the right side lane line - and doing that for an extended time.

    The TACC didn't detect the car and kept driving at constant speed and when it was clear it was ignoring the car, I had to take control.

    The "8.1" software distributed last week clearly needs more work - and while TACC seems to be working better than AP, both still need monitoring, and aren't yet at a point when they should be considered as safe as a human driver.

    Looking forward to the next release...
     
  3. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    I've also encountered a number of "false positives" with AP2 TACC - where it abruptly slows down even though there isn't any obstacle in the lane. Haven't found a pattern for this yet...
     
  4. JasJ

    JasJ Member

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    My car gets twitchy with low power lines across the street..especially if there are at least three..get that flicker of medium braking immediately followed by resumed speed. Freaks my wife out. I keep telling her that the car is learning false obstacles.
     
  5. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. That bears repeating.
     
  6. dknisely

    dknisely Member

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    There is plenty of evidence that TACC relies almost entirely on Tesla's excellent radar signal processing, but radar is widely known to NOT be able to detect fixed objects that come into view or were never seen moving previously. Just think about how it works -- the environment is filled with objects that aren't moving relative to the earth, and they are all returning signals that indicate "not moving." It is not reliably possible to distinguish between a non-tracked object that was previously moving, but has not slowed and stopped, from all the background stuff like the road, pillars, signs, junk on the highway, guard rails, overpasses, etc.

    Never, ever trust TACC to detect and stop when you come up on a fixed object, no matter what type or size or material. The only backup is computer vision, which is even more unreliable.

    LIDAR would possibly work, but it is limited by optics and range as well (so it can't work reliably in all conditions), and it might not recognize a stopped object that is approached at high speed in time.

    Remember that this stuff is there to ASSIST you, not replace you. I always go on high alert whenever I'm NOT following a vehicle with a good radar lock, especially when approaching a wall of stopped traffic. AP2 is even worse (currently) as it doesn't seen to recognize trucks ahead a lot of times even after following them. I avoid that situation as a result. I think AP1 handles those situations much better today.
     
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  7. Deans

    Deans Member

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    I and the original poster are talking about a MOVING bus, not a stationary bus. I am well aware of the limitations of detecting stationary objects. The fact that it isn't detecting moving objects directly in front of me makes it virtually useless for assistance. "Traffic AWARE cruise control" I don't think there is an adaptive cruise control on the market, other than Tesla's, that does not see moving buses travelling in the same direction as the ACC car.
     
  8. JasJ

    JasJ Member

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    I still find it interesting that TACC closes faster on slower moving silver colored cars than other colors including white. And yes the bus was moving and only slowed to a complete stop about the same time as I did the emergent stop.
     
  9. Deans

    Deans Member

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    I tested this again today in daylight. Sometimes The display showed the moving bus in front, sometimes it didn't. Sometimes it flickered on and off periodically. Definitely not acting quite right.
    Passenger cars in front do not exhibit this behavior.
     
  10. Deans

    Deans Member

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    I followed a garbage truck today. The display did not show a car in front of me as we moved from 0 mph all the way up to 20mph.
    I then engaged TACC, with my foot ready to brake. Surprisingly, as soon as a I engaged TACC the car appeared on the display and TACC acted correctly. After disengaging TACC, the car remained on the display. I repeated this several times and got the same result.
    So in may case, TACC did operate correctly. It seems the display isn't working correctly until TACC is activated for some reason.

    I will say that this does not seem to be the danger I thought it was two days ago. I digress from my earlier post.
     
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  11. prw2732

    prw2732 New Member

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    I recently (only have 396 miles so far) had TACC quit when approaching stopped cars from 49 mph. Braking started, but then quit, and I used the pedal to stop the car. Makes more sense now that stopped vehicles wouldn't trigger the radar. I will keep that in mind.
     
  12. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    We have several roads in the area that end in a "T" intersection with a left/right arrow sign on the other side of the intersection. TACC must recognize the sign as a fixed object and automatically starts slowing down as we approach the intersection.

    Today I tried using TACC and AP2 on a 2 hour drive to/from the airport - and actually found AP2 (17.11.3) was working pretty well. Perhaps the software continues to do calibration on the cameras, because I encountered fewer instances today when I had to take control.
     
  13. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    In it's current iteration, baby-sitting AP2 is more work than just driving the car myself.
     
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  14. OBX John

    OBX John Autonomous Driving Enthusiast

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    TACC didn't pick up a U-Haul rental truck that cut in front of us yesterday on the highway - I was thinking maybe the back door being fiberglass might have been the reason. Very strange to miss a truck when it picks up every car or SUV.
     

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