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90D Range slowly declining

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Well in that instance the code logic that determined who got the email was fouled up. It's much simpler to see which 90 owners have less than x miles at 90%, or better yet if they know the precise cause then query directly for that. I think it's a good idea to maintain good rapport with customers, something which is clearly lacking here. Folks go into their SvC and are either told there is nothing wrong or that some future update somewhere along the line is going to fix it somehow. Neither are good responses, IMO.

I think the SvC response would be fine if it was consistent and with a little more specificity. If they acknowledge its an issue and are committed to fixing it within a certain timeframe I would trust that.
 
So you'd be fine waking up one day to see the range number is magically back up to 257 at 90% without any idea what was done? Ok, interesting. Guess we have different perceptions on this issue.

No, I didn't mean to imply that. If there's a problem with the battery chemistry as I think you have put out there as a possibility a few weeks ago, they aren't going to be able to fix that with firmware. If, on the other hand, they say it's a software issue (algorithm, app, etc) that's specific to this pack and they can recalibrate w/software yeah I would be fine with seeing 257 and 287 again. Maybe you could help us find a way to verify its not BS. [emoji3]
 
The thing is the amount of time and usage currently on these packs could have easily been tested in the lab under accelerated cycle testing. Even real lifetime should have been tested as the batteries have been in development for quite some time.

Likely either a software problem if the curves aren't exactly same as other batteries or a manufacturing problem.
 
I have a P90D which I got Sept 8. I had an S85 before that. The S85 after 30 months and 97,000 km had only 16 kilometers degraded. My P90D started with 393km 90% range. It currently sits with 353km with 90% range. Tesla is looking into it but its been a couple of months. They do not believe its the battery, but how they calculate range or something like that. Has anyone else had this much degrade in their battery? It continues to go down. Still its the best car I have ever had and I have no complaints about service or anything like that, I am just concerned when the cold hits, I will really miss those extra KM's on the regular long drives.
 
My P85D is currently at the service center for the 25,000-mile service (which is much more comprehensive than the 1-year/12.5k service) and I asked them to look into my recent and major rated miles decline.

I don't have the car back yet, but when I spoke to them yesterday they did confirm that they looked into the battery degradation and said nothing looks out of the ordinary.
My service advisor also mentioned that it's likely that the software algorithm in recent releases updates the rated range differently than it used it.

Apparently even service center techs don't really know how new algorithms are implemented, which I find disturbing as they are not equipped by the mothership to answer their customers' concerns...
 
I have a P90D which I got Sept 8. I had an S85 before that. The S85 after 30 months and 97,000 km had only 16 kilometers degraded. My P90D started with 393km 90% range. It currently sits with 353km with 90% range. Tesla is looking into it but its been a couple of months. They do not believe its the battery, but how they calculate range or something like that. Has anyone else had this much degrade in their battery? It continues to go down. Still its the best car I have ever had and I have no complaints about service or anything like that, I am just concerned when the cold hits, I will really miss those extra KM's on the regular long drives.

Mines down about 3.5% so far.
 
My P85D is currently at the service center for the 25,000-mile service (which is much more comprehensive than the 1-year/12.5k service) and I asked them to look into my recent and major rated miles decline.

I don't have the car back yet, but when I spoke to them yesterday they did confirm that they looked into the battery degradation and said nothing looks out of the ordinary.
My service advisor also mentioned that it's likely that the software algorithm in recent releases updates the rated range differently than it used it.

Apparently even service center techs don't really know how new algorithms are implemented, which I find disturbing as they are not equipped by the mothership to answer their customers' concerns...

It concerns me that the answers from the service centers are not consistent which makes me feel like they're making it up. My service center tech told me that he spoke with the engineers and I'm supposed to get 6% more than the 85D which has a rated range of 270 therefore my current ~278/279 is right where it should be and normal. Unfortunately his math was wrong; 6% increase is 286.2 not 278.
 
It concerns me that the answers from the service centers are not consistent which makes me feel like they're making it up. My service center tech told me that he spoke with the engineers and I'm supposed to get 6% more than the 85D which has a rated range of 270 therefore my current ~278/279 is right where it should be and normal. Unfortunately his math was wrong; 6% increase is 286.2 not 278.

I think they just rounded to 6% as 5/90 = 0.0555555 = 5.5%. Adding 1 and multiplying that by 270, I would think the S90 should get right around 285...which is pretty close to the 286.2 that you calculated.

If 278 is 'normal' then I think I'll probably just save $3000 and get an 85D over a 90D if I end up with an S.
 
I think they just rounded to 6% as 5/90 = 0.0555555 = 5.5%. Adding 1 and multiplying that by 270, I would think the S90 should get right around 285...which is pretty close to the 286.2 that you calculated.

If 278 is 'normal' then I think I'll probably just save $3000 and get an 85D over a 90D if I end up with an S.

Right but he was off by 8 miles which is about half of the additional range 80D people paid for. But my point was I felt he would say anything to make me go away.
 
But my point was I felt he would say anything to make me go away.
Unfortunately, Tesla's source of service people is the same pool as the dealers' (for the most part). Some of them have the "get them through quickly" mentality so engrained in them, that they continue to operate the same way. It will take a long time before Tesla gets that mentality out of their system. Remember that in their previous job they could get a pay decrease or even fired if they didn't put through their quota of customers per day. This leads to saying anything so that the customer will settle. My experience is that those people are in the minority and most Tesla service people go way beyond the call of duty to make it right. (But it doesn't help that Tesla's internal communication isn't a whole lot better than their external communication.)
 
Unfortunately, Tesla's source of service people is the same pool as the dealers' (for the most part). Some of them have the "get them through quickly" mentality so engrained in them, that they continue to operate the same way. It will take a long time before Tesla gets that mentality out of their system. Remember that in their previous job they could get a pay decrease or even fired if they didn't put through their quota of customers per day. This leads to saying anything so that the customer will settle. My experience is that those people are in the minority and most Tesla service people go way beyond the call of duty to make it right. (But it doesn't help that Tesla's internal communication isn't a whole lot better than their external communication.)

Completely agree which is why I'm sure TM will make it right. I'm just not sure how to escalate.
 
Guys, you're going to have to ask specific questions. What's my CAC? How many kWh remain at x%? Otherwise they will always give you the "everything's normal" response. Just my friendly advice.

What should the Calculated amp-hour Capacity be on the 90D, what number am I looking for? Same question on kWh, what number should it be and what percentages, 50, 90, 100%?

I'm afraid battery tech is beyond my knowledge and I would like to understand what I'm asking and the answers I'm given (if they give it to me).
 
For CAC, I defer to AmpedRealtor:

For all practical purposes it doesn't matter. In fact, if the car was never "range charged" (or "max charged" to 100%) then the range estimate is likely mis-calibrated and reading low. These sellers are presuming that their cars have less battery degradation because they have never charged the battery to 100%, but they would have no way to actually prove it. The only way to determine battery health is to ask the service center for a particular car's CAC value and compare against the CAC value of a brand new delivery. I've read in the forums that a healthy, brand new 85 kWh pack should have a CAC value of 155-160.

Of course, that is for an 85 kWh. You will have to scale it accordingly. Same goes for kWh remaining. For an 85 kWh at 100%, I'm pretty certain the kWh remaining would read ~77 when brand new. This is the total kWh available to the driver. The remainder is only seen by the BMS.
 
OK, so here's the results of my Service (non-Service) visit.
My SA called me early morning on the day I was supposed to bring in my car to have my battery checked and possibly changed.
He said that Tesla engineers had informed him that the battery/range/declining of the S90 is a known issue with many S90 owners report having the same problem.
He went on to say that he was told nothing was wrong with the batteries but that a future firmware update will solve it; but that he wasn't sure when that would happen.
In the end, he said there was no reason to bring in my car for the battery issue as there is nothing he could do; be patient.
So I am now being patient.

On a good note; my battery has seemed to stabilize; most of my 90% charges are 245, on rare occasions it's reached 246 miles.

I leave to Miami, FL this Sunday...hopefully the Montreal-Albany trip will happen uneventful as it has before during early autumn.
I still love my car, and will sleep in the confidence that Tesla will make it right, sooner rather than later.
Just don't quote my serenity if Spring comes around and still no fix.

Best regards
Ron

I just got back from my local SvC and the good news is they gave me almost the same exact response as you got Ron regarding the range loss so I'm happy that it's consistent. They seemed to know all about it and sat down with me to explain what they knew.

Here's a summary:

1. I'm not really losing range. It's the way the software is interpreting what it's reading from "certain 90D" batteries.
2. It's correctable with a firmware update that they are working on now. (Can't give me an ETA but will note all of this on my service paperwork).

I feel a lot better now!

Mike
 
I just got back from my local SvC and the good news is they gave me almost the same exact response as you got Ron regarding the range loss so I'm happy that it's consistent. They seemed to know all about it and sat down with me to explain what they knew.

Here's a summary:

1. I'm not really losing range. It's the way the software is interpreting what it's reading from "certain 90D" batteries.
2. It's correctable with a firmware update that they are working on now. (Can't give me an ETA but will note all of this on my service paperwork).

I feel a lot better now!

Mike

Good to hear, and I'm happy you're happy. I go in next Tuesday for a couple of other things. This topic is already on my list, as well as my bringing along a printout of my log and "85D->90D 6% Increase Marketing Numbers"->"My 90D IC-presented numbers with an apparent 40% loss of my $3k 16-mile upgrade in the first 60 days" chart. ;). Like you, at least a solid explanation Tesla knows what's going on, confirmation a solution is really being worked, and my concern is documented, will go a long way easing any concern I have right now. As time goes on, even though this problem does not effect the entire fleet, it DOES need resolution for those customers that paid for this option. IMHO it cannot be deprioritized or left unfinished for months or years as perhaps other features have been. I try to be very reasonable and never a pain in the a**, but will be less tolerant as time goes on, as I suspect most 90D owners will be that are encountering this problem.