90kWh upgrade price for existing S85 owners will be...?

[tstafford]

My DS called me yesterday about several topics and said that if I was interested in getting the 90kWh battery the smartest move in his opinion was to cancel my order, eat the $2500 and re-order. He said he is unsure what the battery upgrade will be but expects it will be significantly more than the cost of re-ordering now.

 

[SmartElectric]

as they recycle the batteries

did you mean re-use? these cells and packs are good for 10 more years (maybe more) in a wide variety of uses, not the least of which is powerpacks or something similar. why go to the energy intensive effort to grind up and recycle when the cells and hopefully pack can be reused?

 

[Electricfan]

Well, what's troubling about that is the PD is only a few months old. If it's that unreasonable for a new car, what's the cost for a 2-3 year old one? Folks thinking they're going to waltz into a 110 kWh pack in 5 years, dream on!

Are you accounting for 7% drop in battery prices per year?
And what about the gigafactory? I thought that was what was supposed to make the Model 3 a reality by reaching a tipping point that makes EVs compete with gas-powered cars cost wise. Without dramatic drops in battery prices will Tesla make it in the long run (15 years)?

I hope you're wrong, because if battery prices don't improve dramatically everything I've read says EVs won't go mainstream, which is the whole ballgame. If they do improve dramatically we can all hope for a 110kwh battery upgrade that's affordable in 5 years. I'm actually dreaming of much more - a breakthrough that gives us a battery nobody even suspects can happen today (admittedly I read too many internet "breakthrough battery" articles).


Sorry, forgot to add that I called Tesla a few minutes ago to ask this very question. His response was "what kind do you have now? me: 85S him: Oh Tesla isn't even upgrading those right now, but Tesla hasn't even given us detail on P85D upgrades - call back in a couple of weeks"

 

[dsm363]

My DS called me yesterday about several topics and said that if I was interested in getting the 90kWh battery the smartest move in his opinion was to cancel my order, eat the $2500 and re-order. He said he is unsure what the battery upgrade will be but expects it will be significantly more than the cost of re-ordering now.

I'd just keep the 85 then. I'm sure there will be battery upgrades still in the future and you might be able to get an even bigger pack in a few years.

 

[Electricfan]

My DS called me yesterday about several topics and said that if I was interested in getting the 90kWh battery the smartest move in his opinion was to cancel my order, eat the $2500 and re-order. He said he is unsure what the battery upgrade will be but expects it will be significantly more than the cost of re-ordering now.

LOL! Sweet!! Welcome to the Tesla world!

Problem is, if you do that by the time you confirm the new order Tesla will announce something else that you'll want. Good luck, whatever you choose!

 

[AmpedRealtor]

This person got this answer from Service Center:

"P85D can not be upgraded to P90D (at a reasonable cost)."

It might be that they don't give you a cent for your used 85 battery (and maybe even charge a recycling fee!).

If that's the response, maybe Elon needs to stop shooting off his mouth and saying things that aren't true.

 

[napabill]

If that's the response, maybe Elon needs to stop shooting off his mouth and saying things that aren't true.

Good luck with that!

 

[mgboyes]

If that's the response, maybe Elon needs to stop shooting off his mouth and saying things that aren't true.

Elon did specifically say that he doesn't recommend existing owners upgrade to the 90kWh pack. He definitely never said that those who ignore his advice and go ahead with it anyway will get any kind of discount or beneficial pricing.

We know there have been a few people who have upgraded from 60 to 85, at very high cost. Since that's the only concrete data we have on historical pack upgrade pricing, that's where I'd be starting in terms of judging the likely cost of this.

I think DES advice to cancel, lose your deposit, and reorder, is very smart, and likely to be the cheapest route available to you if you've decided that 90kWh is essential for you.

 

[Niclas]

Elon did specifically say that he doesn't recommend existing owners upgrade to the 90kWh pack. He definitely never said that those who ignore his advice and go ahead with it anyway will get any kind of discount or beneficial pricing.

We know there have been a few people who have upgraded from 60 to 85, at very high cost. Since that's the only concrete data we have on historical pack upgrade pricing, that's where I'd be starting in terms of judging the likely cost of this.

I think DES advice to cancel, lose your deposit, and reorder, is very smart, and likely to be the cheapest route available to you if you've decided that 90kWh is essential for you.

The cost for a re-order would be 2500 + 3000= 5500 dollars for 5 kwh. Ludicrous!

 

[mknox]

Elon did specifically say that he doesn't recommend existing owners upgrade to the 90kWh pack. He definitely never said that those who ignore his advice and go ahead with it anyway will get any kind of discount or beneficial pricing.

While that's likely true, even the blog post is confusing in this regard. (Here is the post again):

It reads like this $3,000 option is available for new buyers and, by the way, existing owners can get it too. By saying "the pack upgrade" it implies that it is "the" upgrade mentioned in the first paragraph.

Tesla seems to do this a lot. Should have said something like price for existing owners TBD or based on current pack trade in value or something like that.

 

[tliving]

Perhaps I'm missing something but why would anyone pay anything for an extra 15 miles of range? The pack has an 8 year infinite mile warranty. Unless you just can't make your normal driving needs with the range you have then why would you pay anything? If its on a degraded pack, then you'll be back in that boat sooner or later. If its just not making it now, then after a bit of time you'll be back there too.

Elons recommendation of waiting for much more significant improvements makes sense.

The only problem I have with that suggestion is I doubt they'll let you update to those newer packs from the older ones when that time comes or that it would make financial sense. But at that point i'd likely want all the new autopilot features etc anyway.

 

[mibaro2]

Perhaps I'm missing something but why would anyone pay anything for an extra 15 miles of range? The pack has an 8 year infinite mile warranty. Unless you just can't make your normal driving needs with the range you have then why would you pay anything? If its on a degraded pack, then you'll be back in that boat sooner or later. If its just not making it now, then after a bit of time you'll be back there too.

Elons recommendation of waiting for much more significant improvements makes sense.

The only problem I have with that suggestion is I doubt they'll let you update to those newer packs from the older ones when that time comes or that it would make financial sense. But at that point i'd likely want all the new autopilot features etc anyway.

Any of the Sig owners that have an A or B pack and a lot of miles on the car would/should jump at this chance.
It doesn't make sense for you or I that got our cars in 2014 since our packs are D packs and relatively new (I guess the 900kw pack is the E pack).

 

[mknox]

Any of the Sig owners that have an A or B pack and a lot of miles on the car would/should jump at this chance.
It doesn't make sense for you or I that got our cars in 2014 since our packs are D packs and relatively new (I guess the 900kw pack is the E pack).

Wait... there are Sig owners that got B-packs??? My post Sig Production model came with an A-pack!!

 

[tomas]

Any of the Sig owners that have an A or B pack and a lot of miles on the car would/should jump at this chance.
It doesn't make sense for you or I that got our cars in 2014 since our packs are D packs and relatively new (I guess the 900kw pack is the E pack).

All sig owners have A packs. Some non sig 2012 and 13 owners do too. Many are high mileage. A packs have limited supercharge rate. tesla should provide those owners a preferred upgrade price, since they were sold a battery with less capability. We will see when upgrade pricing becomes available... A pack owners have most reason to update. Having said that, I'd still wait for 110 or 120.

 

[bollar]

Perhaps I'm missing something but why would anyone pay anything for an extra 15 miles of range? .

You're right, but... Come away from the Coast and drive away from the SC network. I regularly go on trips where I arrive with a depleted battery and that 15 miles would mean I could go a little faster or a little further.

I'm still not buying, but I did think about it.

 

[mknox]

Having said that, I'd still wait for 110 or 120.

Agree. I'm sorta surprised that Tesla's first major battery capacity announcement was only an additional 5 kWh. I had been thinking that they would need to develop something around 100 kWh or more for the X simply to overcome the extra weight, aerodynamics and (possible) trailer towing and keep the range in the ballpark of the S. And since the X and S share a platform, that new battery would be available in the S as well. Maybe 90 kWh is all the X will need to be comparable to an 85 kWh S.

 

[mibaro2]

Wait... there are Sig owners that got B-packs??? My post Sig Production model came with an A-pack!!

I wasn't sure, so I threw in "B" as well...covering my bases so to speak. But you get the general idea of it being great for sig owners.

 

[Matteo]

why would anyone pay anything for an extra 15 miles of range?

I think 90D will have 286 EPA. That's 16 mi difference.

For some people upgrading a product they own is more fun than buying a new product. The specific car they own might be more valuable to them for sentimental or practical reasons like money or time spent on customizations.

Also Supercharging is faster with the 90 kWh packs than 85. This has to do with percentages. For example 190 rated miles in 85D is 190/270=70.37% but in 90D it is 190/286=66.43%. This small difference becomes very important at higher charge levels because of the tapering curve. The power is reduced near the end as the battery gets fuller. That means to acquire the same charged miles the 90D doesn't need to supercharge to the same high percentages. Here is some data:

Supercharging to 180 miles is 3 min faster in 90 kWh packs vs 85 kWh
Supercharging to 210 miles is 4 min faster in 90 kWh packs vs 85 kWh
Supercharging to 240 miles is 7 min faster in 90 kWh packs vs 85 kWh
Supercharging to 270 miles is 34 min faster in 90 kWh packs vs 85 kWh

Why does this matter? Most times people don't supercharge to 240-270 mi anyway because it takes long time and they don't need it because they visit all superchargers on the route. Exactly. If it didn't take long time, this would be a good option. Let's say you can charge at your destination and you are two superchargers away from there. You could supercharge to 270 miles in 1h 9min instead 1h 43min and skip the last supercharger.

More range allows (1) driving faster when the range is near limits or (2) skipping a supercharger. For example when going from Gilroy to Tejon Ranch if you skip Harris Ranch the distance is 227 miles. That is hard to do in an 85D, at least at reasonable speeds. Most people would not skip Harris Ranch because 227 miles is like 100% of the range and you have no buffer left. But if the weather is good and you don't drive too fast, this could be possible in 90D. This is just a random example I picked after looking at supercharge.info to demonstrate the advantage. Don't try this just because I said it might be possible.

 

[Matteo]

I have more information about the Gilroy to Tejon Ranch scenario I randomly mentioned yesterday. Today finally I completed the calculator for energy consumption between two superchargers. I was working on this for the last week. So I thought lets see what it shows. It turns out this route is indeed doable in S90D if you drive at 70 mph and AC off, no headwind. Here is a comparison.

 

[tomas]

Yep, it all comes down to how much it costs, how much long distance driving you do, and what battery you had in the first place.
If you have an A pack (like me), and you drive SC routes a lot and this could enable more frequent SC skips, and you could charge substantially faster (than the current 90kW limit for A packs), then you are anxiously awaiting the price for a 90kWh battery to see if you can justify it. Thanks for the math, Matteo. I'd love to see that math for an A pack P85 vs a P90.