980 vs 990 motor settled

[Dolemite]

I know there's been speculation on here that this was the case. Nothing definitive, because internet. But this "tuning" company figured it out:

Ghost Upgrade - Why is it restricted to the 1120980 rear motor?

The power electronics are superior in the 1120980 motor. Model 3 Performance models all have this motor number. The 1120990 motor is less powerful so it’s impossible to increase the power by 150HP. The Boost 50 module is the maximum power for this engine.

Ghost Upgrade

 

[Star Platinum]

Someone already settled the debate a million times thanks for feeding his ego.

 

[Zoomit]

I’m still curious to know what bin my rear motor came out of. It doesn’t have a part number marked on it.

 

[cypho]

I agree that most likely the 990 is less capable. But I don't see this as any more conclusive than previous reasoning.

Couldn't it just be that since Tesla doesn't make a P with the 990 it isn't possible to fool the car into thinking it is a P when it has a 990? If you tell a 990 car that it is a P, when it sees the 990 motor it might just get confused and shut down even if the 990 wouldn't explode if sent P level power.

 

[Star Platinum]

I agree that most likely the 990 is less capable. But I don't see this as any more conclusive than previous reasoning.

Couldn't it just be that since Tesla doesn't make a P with the 990 it isn't possible to fool the car into thinking it is a P when it has a 990? If you tell a 990 car that it is a P, when it sees the 990 motor it might just get confused and shut down even if the 990 wouldn't explode if sent P level power.

Careful saying 990, it can trigger some people.

 

[M109Rider]

I agree that most likely the 990 is less capable. But I don't see this as any more conclusive than previous reasoning.

Couldn't it just be that since Tesla doesn't make a P with the 990 it isn't possible to fool the car into thinking it is a P when it has a 990? If you tell a 990 car that it is a P, when it sees the 990 motor it might just get confused and shut down even if the 990 wouldn't explode if sent P level power.

I would think the “Hack” is designed to work around what the car normally wants to do.
If they can Hack the 980 and trick/program it to be a “P”, why couldn’t they also Hack the 990 and trick/program it to be a “P” ?
I suspect they could...

What makes more sense,;

“A”. they can figure out how to hack the 980, but just can’t quite figure out how to hack the 990?
Or
“B”. They don’t hack the 990 because it can’t handle it ?

My logic says option “B”...

 

[jmaddr]

I’m still curious to know what bin my rear motor came out of. It doesn’t have a part number marked on it.

+1. Anyone know how to tell?

 

[Knightshade]

Someone already settled the debate a million times thanks for feeding his ego.

You rang?


And of course there continues to be no evidence for (and a good bit against) the idea they "binned" anything on the 980 other than a vague Elon tweet from before they ever built any Ps, and a couple people "sure" they did it with no hard evidence.


Meanwhile folks got as-delivered LR AWDs flashed to Ps at the delivery center (because Tesla delivered a LR AWD but they ordered a P) without anyone caring about some sooper-sekrit hidden BINNING designation.... and if you check the parts catalog there's only 1 version of the 980 in there- it's buyable over the counter, and they don't require your VIN to see if you need the SPECIAL MAGIC BINNED version nobody can show exists.

 

[SammichLover]

I’m still curious to know what bin my rear motor came out of. It doesn’t have a part number marked on it.

Having the part number on there wouldn't help, they were all "980" in 2018, "990" didn't arrive in vehicles until early 2019 (EDIT:and 980 DU continued to be used in some D vehicles for months after that). For whatever reason, Tesla didn't bother with a different part number for the "binned" ones. So you've got a theoretically Performance capable DU, and a good chance it'll work as one. If demand for P vehicles was lower than the yields they got on the electronics part (very likely true, and drove the early $5K price drop for the P/P-) it is possible you have one that is up to full P standards but was never tested, so isn't even a "reject".

Just like when overclocking a CPU, that was binned as a lesser capable part than the other officially verified higher clock speed part, you can't really tell about this one way or the other without cranking it up. And even then it is likely the potential extra degradation over what Tesla was targeting for the P won't be apparent immediately.

 

[timk225]

So if my April 2018 build LR RWD has the good 980 motor, then why doesn't Tesla offer me a boost pack for it?

And all the motors should have been made the same, barring improvements that come over time. Having 2 motors in the parts bins is extra inventory, extra cost, and less efficiency.

 

[Knightshade]

So if my April 2018 build LR RWD has the good 980 motor, then why doesn't Tesla offer me a boost pack for it?

There's the idea the RWD rear motor is pretty near maxed out.

The AWD/P have a front motor too.

And even for LR AWD the boost they do sell for 2k isn't a full P unlock


It's not a full P unlock because

A) don't want to piss off/devalue the P
and/or
B) Only 980 cars can get it- meaning you piss off 990 owners and tell NEW BUYERS "hey you are buying inferior parts!"

 

[SammichLover]

So if my April 2018 build LR RWD has the good 980 motor, then why doesn't Tesla offer me a boost pack for it?

Because they don't like you? The RWD wasn't really aimed at "get up and go" people, and the price difference between it and the base AWD is fairly minimal.

There might also be TC/SC questions that they'd have to work out or confirm. For boosting the D that's already been worked by having the Performance in existence.

And all the motors should have been made the same, barring improvements that come over time. Having 2 motors in the parts bins is extra inventory, extra cost, and less efficiency.

There's a point where the cost savings of the part built using lower standards overcome the inventory logistics costs. Given Tesla's strong past in going with "one part", that they purposefully went with two different parts probably means there is substantial manufacturing cost difference.

 

[ECTO-1]

They do. It's $2000.

It's not a full P unlock because

A) don't want to piss off/devalue the P
and/or
B) Only 980 cars can get it- meaning you piss off 990 owners and tell NEW BUYERS "hey you are buying inferior parts!"

I thought the $2k option was for AWD only, not RWD...

Somewhere I read the difference between the 990 and 980 was the DU inverter size (630 KW vs 800 KW). 990 being smaller and less expensive inverter.


I'm hoping for a "end of the quarter flash sale" on the $2k for .5 sec. I'm going to buy it anyways at some point, just wouldn't mind an addition % off.


ECTO-1

 

[kev1n]

I would think the “Hack” is designed to work around what the car normally wants to do.
If they can Hack the 980 and trick/program it to be a “P”, why couldn’t they also Hack the 990 and trick/program it to be a “P” ?
I suspect they could...

What makes more sense,;

“A”. they can figure out how to hack the 980, but just can’t quite figure out how to hack the 990?
Or
“B”. They don’t hack the 990 because it can’t handle it ?

My logic says option “B”...

they technically are not hacking anything other than rooting the car. they are using pre-existing firmware from official tesla like accel boost and P flavor. there is no custom work involved yet other than maybe the unreleased "stage 3"

 

[SammichLover]

I thought the $2k option was for AWD only, not RWD...

Somewhere I read the difference between the 990 and 980 was the DU inverter size (630 KW vs 800 KW). 990 being smaller and less expensive inverter.

Yes.

But keep in mind that the RWD is already as shipped putting more power through the rear DU than the base AWD does as shipped, so there's less headroom there. The base AWD is putting more total power into the wheels, and is quicker, but it is splitting that between two motors so has less going through the rear DU than the RWD does.

 

[Knightshade]

I thought the $2k option was for AWD only, not RWD...

It is- I have edited my post to clarify

Somewhere I read the difference between the 990 and 980 was the DU inverter size (630 KW vs 800 KW). 990 being smaller and less expensive inverter.

Yeah- some folks refused to accept the 990 was less capable and cheaper- despite it not making any sense to exist unless that was true- at least some have now come to understand it's correct it seems but some remain holdouts on the topic.

I'm hoping for a "end of the quarter flash sale" on the $2k for .5 sec. I'm going to buy it anyways at some point, just wouldn't mind an addition % off.


ECTO-1

For the AWD? Very very very unlikely... it's already cheap for what it does... and baring that weird 2 week hiccup Feb/March of 2019 Tesla doesn't tend to put software features on sale at all. If you really want the boost cheaper I guess the inginex option is available to you for $1100 if you don't mind warranty and other risks that come with it.

 

[MagnusMako]

they technically are not hacking anything other than rooting the car. they are using pre-existing firmware from official tesla like accel boost and P flavor. there is no custom work involved yet other than maybe the unreleased "stage 3"

How are you so sure of that? I honestly found the amount ahead that the AWD pulled on the P3 in the video seemed excessive, despite having 1 less passenger. One of those final runs, Rich got the hit off the line and the AWD still pulled ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a custom profile with stage 2, keeping everything the same but just changing a few numbers around and maybe going slightly more powerful than P is normally. It seems like there is probably a lot of buffer already built in in terms of the potential, otherwise there wouldn't seem likely any mention of a stage 3.

 

[SammichLover]

How are you so sure of that? I honestly found the amount ahead that the AWD pulled on the P3 in the video seemed excessive, despite having 1 less passenger. One of those final runs, Rich got the hit off the line and the AWD still pulled ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a custom profile with stage 2, keeping everything the same but just changing a few numbers around and maybe going slightly more powerful than P is normally. It seems like there is probably a lot of buffer already built in in terms of the potential, otherwise there wouldn't seem likely any mention of a stage 3.

Different wheels, it is possible the D also had some other weight drops done that weren't obvious. This is a vehicle from a tuning shop.

Even in the video Rich explicitly referred to the Stage 2 claim as imbuing acceleration equal to the Performance.

 

[Knightshade]

How are you so sure of that? I honestly found the amount ahead that the AWD pulled on the P3 in the video seemed excessive, despite having 1 less passenger. One of those final runs, Rich got the hit off the line and the AWD still pulled ahead.

Of course once Rich actually tested the AWD with a draggy instead of a human-measured 2 car race- the times sucked.

He showed 5 runs, with an average of ~3.42 for 0-60.

Which is pretty terrible for something that allegedly "beat" a P over and over.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have a custom profile with stage 2, keeping everything the same but just changing a few numbers around and maybe going slightly more powerful than P is normally.

I would- given how crap the actual legit measured times he ran were.

 

[kev1n]

How are you so sure of that? I honestly found the amount ahead that the AWD pulled on the P3 in the video seemed excessive, despite having 1 less passenger. One of those final runs, Rich got the hit off the line and the AWD still pulled ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a custom profile with stage 2, keeping everything the same but just changing a few numbers around and maybe going slightly more powerful than P is normally. It seems like there is probably a lot of buffer already built in in terms of the potential, otherwise there wouldn't seem likely any mention of a stage 3.

I'm a fan of Rich and have been following him since the beginning but lets be real here, neither him or Chris are the brains in this offering. even if they tweaked it, i doubt its far from the original. the race video can be deceiving. there are too many variables, different drivers, single data point, marketing purposes, etc.

the draggy scores are on par with a official P car