A Brake Weight comparison - trying to optimize the weight savings

[T fanatic]

While waiting for delivery of my 2023 Plaid showroom car (got delayed because Tesla are sooo confused after the layoffs mildly put) , I spend my time with such things as trying to make up a plan on how to save some weight on the Wheels.
I dont track as I unfortunately have very far to any track that allows non-members so it is not included in my plans. The goal is to save weight for that (hysterical yes) tiny bit of performance improvement but also range improvement. This as I find great joy in optimizing stuff. Shortly put it should not affect the brake feeling when driving on streets. I heard carbon discs might affect the feeling of braking , that I dont like. Priorities are 1. weight 2. break feeling (i dont want to have to press harder on the brakes during street use) 3. price 4. delivery time. 5. break performance
Again the break performance is furthest down on my list, this does not mean I will accept worse performance neither for the first heavy breaking nor for repetitive tests. But on the other hand any improvement is of course much appreciated. Not accepted is also anything making the daily use break feeling be worse. I dont strive for the heavy servo break feeling at all actually I like when you have to use more pressure on the pedal as you had to 20 years ago on most cars. But when people write that with carbon ceramic breaks the feeling might be "dull" or even inconsistent then I get a bit worried about choosing carbon ceramics.

Rims is a later project ...... (and by the way I like big wheels so 19" is not an option for weight savings)

I tried to make a comparison on disc rotors and calipers weights for different aftermarket brake kits for my Plaid. But it should be applicable for other Teslas as well. Girodisc has told me my rear discs from my previous MS 100D 2018 are fully compatible with my new Plaid 2023.
I have weight measurements that I made myself and it is mixed with data found on internet.
It turned out to be a huge task so I started to use chatgpt. But sometimes it is not very correct so I am posting its result here hoping for your inputs on the values. Hopefully this can become a comprehensive guide on what to choose for anybody else in the same predicament.

Hurdles (and solutions):
Tesla does not list any weights for its track package (solved this by doing lots of guesses and adding UP BBK caliper weight increases)
UP is notoriously bad with its weights. I know from weighting their stuff myself that they are 50% of on the weight savings for their titanium lug nuts and they are 28% off on the weight savings for BBK kit for Model S 2016-2018. Also the big sweep weight is listed for pre production units and only for front. (solved this by adding 28% to their BBK and 10% to Big Sweep )

Need help with....

• Check the data please (post updates and I will have it updated in this thread)
• Weight on Teslas track pack?
• Actual verified weight of UP stuff?
• Delivery times are based partly on experience but also on wild guesses. Any input from real life experience is welcome.
• Feedback from anyone using both expensive and less expensive carbon ceramic discs regarding the brake feeling.
• For street use is it necessary with bigger discs when using carbon ceramic to retain the same brake feeling?
• Is it possible to compensate the (potential) loss of break feeling with carbon ceramic disc by exchanging the pipes and also possibly by experimenting with the pads?

chatgpt says........

Simplified Weight Matrix for Tesla Model S Plaid 2023 Brake Components (Sorted by Adjusted Weight)​

Front Components​

Configuration	Adjusted Weight (kg) [lbs]	Saved Weight Per Wheel (kg) (Saving in %)
Noname Carbon Discs + Stock Calipers	12.27 [27.05]	7.18 (36.90%)
Unplugged Carbon Ceramic BBK (Front Only)	14.32** [31.57]	5.13 (26.37%)
Tesla Track Pack Front Rotor + Unplugged BBK Caliper	15*** [33.07]	4.45 (22.88%)
Girodisc Front Rotor + Stock Caliper	17.25 [38.03]	2.2 (11.31%)
Unplugged Big Sweep Rotor + Stock Caliper	17.71*** [39.05]	1.74 (8.94%)
RB Performance Brakes Front Rotor + Stock Caliper	18.08 [39.85]	1.37 (7.04%)
Stock Front Rotor + Caliper	19.45 [42.90]	-

Rear Components​

Configuration	Adjusted Weight (kg) [lbs]	Saved Weight Per Wheel (kg) (Saving in %)
Noname Carbon Discs + Stock Calipers	12.26 [27.03]	3.28 (21.11%)
Tesla Track Pack Rear Rotor + Unplugged BBK Caliper	14.52*** [32.02]	1.02 (6.56%)
Girodisc Rear Rotor + Stock Caliper	14.79 [32.61]	0.75 (4.83%)
RB Performance Brakes Rear Rotor + Stock Caliper	14.87 [32.77]	0.67 (4.31%)
Unplugged Big Sweep Rotor + Stock Caliper	15.54*** [34.26]	0.00 (0%)
Stock Rear Rotor + Caliper	15.54 [34.26]	-

Pricing and Delivery Time Matrix​

Configuration	Price (USD)	Delivery Time
Noname Carbon Discs (front+rear)	7500	3 to 6 months
Tesla Track Pack (front+rear)	15000	Not listed as available in EU
Girodisc (front)	1600	2 to 3 months
Girodisc (rear)	1000	2 to 3 months
RB Performance Brakes (front + rear)	3590 + shipping	No delivery time listed
Unplugged Performance BBK (front)	9195	1 to 2 years
Unplugged Performance Big Sweep (front)	3595	Approx. 6-8 months
Unplugged Performance Big Sweep (rear)	3595	Approx. 6-8 months

Explanations and Disclaimers​

1. Unplugged Performance Big Sweep Rear Rotor + Stock Caliper:
   • *Estimated on claimed 40% weight reduction without data.
2. Unplugged Performance Carbon Ceramic BBK:
   • **Adjusted according to earlier BBK kit weight discrepancies.
3. Unplugged Performance Big Sweep Rotor:
   • ***10% fault factor based on weight discrepancies for BBK kit.

Additional Information on Tesla Track Pack​

An approximation based on third-hand info suggests the Tesla Track Pack achieves a weight saving of 11 lbs (5 kg) per rotor, leading to a total of 33 lbs (15 kg) across all four rotors. This weight saving is likely derived from a reduction of approximately 5 kg per front rotor, and a smaller reduction for the rear rotors. This configuration uses carbon-silicon carbide rotors designed for high performance and heat management.
The weight savings per wheel and the percentage savings are calculated using the weight of the stock rotors and calipers. The Track Pack caliper weights were estimated using the Unplugged Performance BBK calipers as a reference, given the lack of specific data on the Track Pack calipers.

Additional Aftermarket Options​

1. Racing Brake (RB Performance Brakes):
   • Front Rotor + Stock Caliper: 12.38 kg [27.28 lbs] + 5.7 kg [12.57 lbs] (estimated stock caliper weight) = 18.08 kg [39.85 lbs]
   • Rear Rotor + Stock Caliper: 8.07 kg [17.79 lbs] + 6.8 kg [14.99 lbs] (estimated stock caliper weight) = 14.87 kg [32.77 lbs].

Below one example of my own measuring. In this case titanium lug nuts (compared to original tesla lug nuts weighting 220.45 grammes )

 

[MFrunkerOG]

A few things from someone who’s gone through a brake overhaul

1. The stock brakes are the absolute bottom pf the list in terms of performance , but if you just replace the stock pads with say GLOC R12 compound, then suddenly they’re good

2. Brake pedal travel is the factor here - several options to reduce it - MPP’s brake cylinder brace, brake pad shims, caliper piston shims all reduce pedal travel and improve brake feel

3. Choice of rotor is about cooling more than anything else. Take your pick from any number of options (like Girodisc). The lower the rotor weight, the lower the cooling capacity (all things being equal). But if the rotor has actual cooling vanes (which the stock rotor does not), you come out positive in terms of brake performance

Weight is really not a huge factor to any driving experience. You have steering assist in the car and that takes care of that

 

[T fanatic]

A few things from someone who’s gone through a brake overhaul

1. The stock brakes are the absolute bottom pf the list in terms of performance , but if you just replace the stock pads with say GLOC R12 compound, then suddenly they’re good

2. Brake pedal travel is the factor here - several options to reduce it - MPP’s brake cylinder brace, brake pad shims, caliper piston shims all reduce pedal travel and improve brake feel

3. Choice of rotor is about cooling more than anything else. Take your pick from any number of options (like Girodisc). The lower the rotor weight, the lower the cooling capacity (all things being equal). But if the rotor has actual cooling vanes (which the stock rotor does not), you come out positive in terms of brake performance

Weight is really not a huge factor to any driving experience. You have steering assist in the car and that takes care of that

Thanks!
girodisc claims that they do not offer very much weigh reduction but much better cooling. Most probably because of the wanes

my last half 2023 has the "updated" pads but I guess there are much better out there, agreed. What about dust with this GLOC R12 compound?

brake pedal travel is interesting you mention as if one want to optimize the rolling resistance I was thinking it is important to clearly separate the pads when the breaks are not in use. While reducing the pedal travel by shims will work the opposite way.

the brake performance is not my priority to improve but any improvement compared to stock brakes are welcome. However weight is on top of my list (while not introducing any "slippery" feeling or whatever the "dull" means when people try to explain carbon ceramic. Question is if changing the piping from rubber lines might compensate for the rumored loss of break feeling when changing to carbon ceramic breaks and NOT upsizing at the same time.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

Thanks!
girodisc claims that they do not offer very much weigh reduction but much better cooling. Most probably because of the wanes

my last half 2023 has the "updated" pads but I guess there are much better out there, agreed. What about dust with this GLOC R12 compound?

brake pedal travel is interesting you mention as if one want to optimize the rolling resistance I was thinking it is important to clearly separate the pads when the breaks are not in use. While reducing the pedal travel by shims will work the opposite way.

the brake performance is not my priority to improve but any improvement compared to stock brakes are welcome. However weight is on top of my list (while not introducing any "slippery" feeling or whatever the "dull" means when people try to explain carbon ceramic. Question is if changing the piping from rubber lines might compensate for the rumored loss of break feeling when changing to carbon ceramic breaks and NOT upsizing at the same time.

I'm sorry I cannot help. lowest weight is carbon ceramic rotors and associated pads. end of story

 

[Doanster1]

Weight savings from brake upgrades is usually not the top priority. Performance is. Look at the data you already have. A couple kilos/a few pounds of difference isn’t going to matter, esp for the price. Your biggest savings will be from the wheels, but then you said you like big wheels, which is going to hurt your quest. Invest in forged wheels if you’re serious about weight reduction IMO. Even then, there won’t be noticeable range or perf improvement as you’ve already stated.

 

[T fanatic]

Yes for sure.
Remember this does not include wheels as that is another thread and more complicated.

I can agree that any kind of optimization might be strange seen from a "sane" point of view. But I happen to take great interest in engineering perfection.

I believe it complicates things to initially look at the price, that is for later. But ok if looking at least price per weight improvement then noname carbon or girodisc is a winner. (se below)

However what I really need help with is
1. verify the weight data (lots of questions like are my approximations for UP and Tesla weights correct)
2. testimonies regarding the brake feeling

Let me elaborate regarding the later which worries me as I have read such things as
A)

Are carbon ceramic brake discs better than iron? | Essex Parts Services, Inc.

That depends on how you plan to use them!

www.essexparts.com

" Poor feel- Experienced drivers will tell you that cast iron discs provide superior pedal feel. Some drivers find that carbon ceramic discs feel abrasive at lower temperatures, and like stone with little modulation once they reach track temps. Brake pedal feel and the resulting confidence is rather important when hurtling towards a guardrail at 150mph!
" ........ yuck that really sounds like suddenly it feels like you have no brakes ... can it really be true?

B)
You want a bigger rotor when you are at it and exchanging stuff when you are upgrading a racing car. You gain bigger heat expansion surface and you gain bigger friction surface. BUT some also say you MUST have a bigger rotor to achieve similar braking performance like one had with iron discs. Then in my head I worry that you might get less braking power with cold carbon discs compared to cold iron discs,

Conclusions regarding "brake feeling"
Is it just during racing this happens then its ok with me but if especially cold temp braking is affected in a negative manner then I need to understand HOW?
I am fully alright with that i might have to use more force on the braking pedal, I like steering and breaking to be heavy. But varying and with strange modulation then it doesn't feel like an upgrade to me. Then again it all seems unlikely and I have a hunch that this type of talk that is of the type, some racing driver trying to explain for a weekend track driver.
What I need now is the weekend track driver to try and explain for me (that has never driven a car with carbon discs) how changing the material in the rotors (not size) affect the cold braking performance and feeling on my daily driver. (to simplify I am excluding hot braking performance here).



Below the earlier promised weight saving per price matrix

Price Per Weight Saved Matrix​

Front Configuration​

Configuration	Price per kg Saved (USD)
Noname Carbon Discs + Stock Calipers	717.02
Girodisc Front Rotor + Stock Caliper	727.27
RB Performance Brakes Front Rotor + Stock Caliper	1759.80
Unplugged Carbon Ceramic BBK (Front Only)	1792.40
Unplugged Big Sweep Rotor + Stock Caliper	2066.09
Tesla Track Pack Front Rotor + Unplugged BBK Caliper	2742.23
Stock Front Rotor + Caliper	inf

Rear Configuration​

Configuration	Price per kg Saved (USD)
Noname Carbon Discs + Stock Calipers	717.02
Girodisc Rear Rotor + Stock Caliper	1333.33
RB Performance Brakes Rear Rotor + Stock Caliper	1759.80
Tesla Track Pack Rear Rotor + Unplugged BBK Caliper	2742.23
Unplugged Big Sweep Rotor + Stock Caliper	inf
Stock Rear Rotor + Caliper	inf

​

 

[Doanster1]

You’re detail-oriented and striving for optimization, which is great. However, braking feel is highly subjective. From what you describe, you’re asking for the same feel as the stock setup under normal driving conditions, which means you’re generally not taxing the brakes. The “only” way to maintain that is to keep the same friction material combo, ie iron with the same pads. That takes CCBs off the table. Now for the rest of your list, the setups that utilize the stock calipers allow you to use the stock pads, which will give you the same feel. If you go with the setups that have diff calipers, by default, the feel will be diff (whether good or bad is up to you), because I assume they’d be 6-pot (or more) combined with diff pad sizes and material (usually higher friction). Aftermarket rotor weight savings is usually due to a two-piece design where the hat is not iron.

 

[T fanatic]

You’re detail-oriented and striving for optimization, which is great. However, braking feel is highly subjective. From what you describe, you’re asking for the same feel as the stock setup under normal driving conditions, which means you’re generally not taxing the brakes. The “only” way to maintain that is to keep the same friction material combo, ie iron with the same pads. That takes CCBs off the table. Now for the rest of your list, the setups that utilize the stock calipers allow you to use the stock pads, which will give you the same feel. If you go with the setups that have diff calipers, by default, the feel will be diff (whether good or bad is up to you), because I assume they’d be 6-pot (or more) combined with diff pad sizes and material (usually higher friction). Aftermarket rotor weight savings is usually due to a two-piece design where the hat is not iron.

Thank you

Assuming cold CCBs. Would you agree to describe it like that "unmodulated" feeling that I found on the internet? I am trying to understand this change of feeling. If it is just a matter of applying more force on the pedal then it is fine with me. Likewise, if the major feeling changes take place when they get hot, it is fine.
All the CCBs I listed (inc noname) all include new pads that supposedly are adapted to the them.

 

[Doanster1]

Thank you

Assuming cold CCBs. Would you agree to describe it like that "unmodulated" feeling that I found on the internet? I am trying to understand this change of feeling. If it is just a matter of applying more force on the pedal then it is fine with me. Likewise, if the major feeling changes take place when they get hot, it is fine.
All the CCBs I listed (inc noname) all include new pads that supposedly are adapted to the them.

I’ve never driven a car with CCBs so cannot provide specific feedback. I still go back to the point that this is daily driving we’re talking about. Our brakes get rarely used remember so they’re never going to come up to temp. So feel will be different, but not so drastic that you’d feel unsafe leaving the house in the morning. “Unmodulated” may be the correct term for street use since CCBs are meant to combat fade (amongst other things) during continual high speed braking, but again, I think you’ll be fine if your number one goal is to optimize for weight and don’t mind the high cost of entry. Just know that it will not feel like stock.

 

[Kohley]

I’ve never driven a car with CCBs so cannot provide specific feedback. I still go back to the point that this is daily driving we’re talking about. Our brakes get rarely used remember so they’re never going to come up to temp. So feel will be different, but not so drastic that you’d feel unsafe leaving the house in the morning. “Unmodulated” may be the correct term for street use since CCBs are meant to combat fade (amongst other things) during continual high speed braking, but again, I think you’ll be fine if your number one goal is to optimize for weight and don’t mind the high cost of entry. Just know that it will not feel like stock.

I think the brake question depends on the use case. Brake feel is subjective and not tied to performance usually. For track driving, there are a ton of variables, repeated stops at high brake temps being the number one concern to avoid fade. Saving weight is easier to get from rim changes. On the street, on ice cold brakes, I can get into the ABS at 100+, 2 or 3 times in a row without fade, that is the primary use application. They have to work very well ice cold, stock set up does this pretty well. The tires stop the car and if you are at the limit of traction, more brakes won't stop it any faster, and a higher heat compound will be worse for that first panic stop when brakes are ice cold. Running a higher heat compound on the street can be down right scary, ask me how I know

 

[T fanatic]

I think the brake question depends on the use case. Brake feel is subjective and not tied to performance usually. For track driving, there are a ton of variables, repeated stops at high brake temps being the number one concern to avoid fade. Saving weight is easier to get from rim changes. On the street, on ice cold brakes, I can get into the ABS at 100+, 2 or 3 times in a row without fade, that is the primary use application. They have to work very well ice cold, stock set up does this pretty well. The tires stop the car and if you are at the limit of traction, more brakes won't stop it any faster, and a higher heat compound will be worse for that first panic stop when brakes are ice cold. Running a higher heat compound on the street can be down right scary, ask me how I know

You can call me fanatic but, I am not stopping at only saving weight by rim change .........I call it a hobby, others luna...something
Your answer was really useful, I believe I got a sense of something here. The compound in the pads is the key!

Still questions pop up, especially regarding what I read.
If I upgrade to Carbon ceramic discs I dont want this -> "carbon ceramic discs feel abrasive at lower temperatures, and like stone with little modulation once they reach track temps" .....

But now you put me on the path that there might be a compound for the pads that together with carbon ceramic discs still give a sensible street use.
I know that with UP you get to choose street or racing pads to be included with the BBK package.


Ok so what you say is that CC+ high heat compound basically doesnt bite when cold.
Do you have CC+ street compound on your daily driver? and what does that mean practically? My guess right now is that you simply have to push the pedal a little bit harder compared to iron discs ???????

 

[T fanatic]

Anyone that could share
1. Actual weight of UP stuff
2. Cold carbon rotors feeling?

 

[Unclepaul]

Not sure what would be the benefit to the OP by optimizing the weight of his brakes, compared to the cost and change of feeling he will experience with very expensive Ceramic rotors.
Maybe better to just purchase some lighter weight rims or tires.

 

[Doanster1]

Anyone that could share
1. Actual weight of UP stuff
2. Cold carbon rotors feeling?

Again, you keep asking for brake feel, which is highly subjective, especially under normal driving conditions. From a safety perspective, unless you’re doing panic stops from cold, I suspect you’re not going to have to mash the pedal because it’s the first drive of the day.
You’ve already acknowledged what we’ve stated about pad compound being the biggest impact to feel, so you need to research that first and foremost in terms of what pads are included with the pkgs you’re looking at.

 

[Izzyz28]

Proper tires are going to make a bigger difference than everything on this list, as will the temperature of the battery.

 

[T fanatic]

Yes ofcourse the feeling is subjective, but nothing is impossible, im sure it must be possible to describe it somehow.

But also interested in if someone has measured the weight of the UP stuff

 

[T fanatic]

Found this thread on a Porsche forum. Basically stating no one knows of any kind of difference in feeling during winter + street use comparing carbon ceramics and steel

Carbon Ceramic Brakes - Any Good In the Winter? - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Panamera - Carbon Ceramic Brakes - Any Good In the Winter? - Good Day, I am looking for feedback, from folks that own a Panamera with Carbon Ceramic Brakes. I am currently considering buying a new Panamera GTS, but I am wondering if I should get it with Carbon Ceramic brakes, or just standard...

rennlist.com

Then comes my next question. What brake pad brands and what compounds can one choose from when aiming for street cruising?

 

[Doanster1]

Found this thread on a Porsche forum. Basically stating no one knows of any kind of difference in feeling during winter + street use comparing carbon ceramics and steel

Carbon Ceramic Brakes - Any Good In the Winter? - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Panamera - Carbon Ceramic Brakes - Any Good In the Winter? - Good Day, I am looking for feedback, from folks that own a Panamera with Carbon Ceramic Brakes. I am currently considering buying a new Panamera GTS, but I am wondering if I should get it with Carbon Ceramic brakes, or just standard...

rennlist.com

Then comes my next question. What brake pad brands and what compounds can one choose from when aiming for street cruising?

I’ve already stated that multiple times even though I’ve never driven a car with CCBs. My point is that for normal daily drives, it’s not going to be materially different. Otherwise OEMs wouldn’t include them as they’d get complaints from folks who just spent a ton of $$ and now state “the car doesn’t brake right”.
As for pads and material, you can def go deep into research and companies should have that info/MSDS, but start generic with categories of friction. EBC and Hawk are good places to start as they have lines for OEM, Street/Sport, Track, and Full Race. Each gets increasingly higher friction material at the expense of noise, dust, and rotor wear. I’ve personally used EBC Redstuff and Yellowstuff pads as well as Hawk HP (or was it HP+?). All were grippier than stock, which was what I wanted.

 

[T fanatic]

Thanks for your patience. I believe i finally get it

Remains to further research tesla and UP rotors and caliber weights as they both are a bit sloppy with specs

 

[Nabush]

On my end so far I have Carbotech XP12 Front/Rear and there is a massive braking improvement.

I'm planning to do MPP "Big Fella' 400mm kit on mine.

However the Carbotech Pads and good fluid (RBF600) are already very good for AutoX. They will be insufficient for roadcourse though, that's why I'm doing MPP. Probably will do MPP rear as well.

Only concern of MPP 400mm kit is that the 19's Tempest won't work with them. I'm planning to buy APEX EC7 19*11 wheels for AutoX with 305 RE-71RS tires. Currently run T-Sportline TSF 20's with 285 square RE71-RS. Once done I will put the street tires on them and use the EC7 's for racing. And will probably buy another set of EC7 OEM sizes for the street to keep efficiency and clear the 400mm brakes