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A College Student Rebuilding a Salvage Tesla Model S

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So your thoughts are even if I reinforce the damaged sections, it's hopeless?

When the community's aluminum body expert thinks this, that is indeed disheartening...

Still going to consult with my Uni's automotive faculty advisor for thoughts though...


Does the car have a drive unit?

I wouldn't give up hope just yet..... If I gave up when my friend told me there was water in the pack, my thread would have been 1 page long.

If your body guy says the shell can't be repaired, just buy my shell... (shameless plug)

haha.


no really buy my shell.
 
There is no way to put a dollar figure to learning. Have at it.

I could kiss you.

History has a tendency to repeat itself...

Does the car have a drive unit?

OH RIGHT! I got so focused on the MCU I forgot to finish checking that... I should do that before continuing on the MCU.

Kinda want to go do that right now, but gotta pay the bills...
IMG_0317.JPG
 
I think parting this car out would be a great way to go. You'd learn a ton about how the car goes together, and what to look for in another salvage. You'd *probably* be able to make all your money back.

I don't think getting this car drivable will be super difficult. It will cost a fortune to get it to look even close to factory, and you'll never get it to be as safe as a factory car. Heck just replacing all the airbags will blow your budget. You'll never be able to replicate a un-damaged cars crash capability by welding in reinforcements. Crash safety is a very difficult thing to get right. The structure has to have just the right stiffness and shape to absorb the energy of a crash. If you make it super strong, then its just going to deform as intended to reduce the accelerations the occupants see. Of course if you don't care about that and just want something you can drive around, probably wouldn't be too hard.
 
I don't think getting this car drivable will be super difficult. It will cost a fortune to get it to look even close to factory, and you'll never get it to be as safe as a factory car.

As far as looks go, when it comes to function vs. fashion, I'm a huge function guy. I will try to make it look as nice as reasonably possible, but I'm not expecting "factory quality" visuals.

Similar case for safety. As is, it is safer than me commuting to/from work via motorcycle. It also has better performance the my motorcycle too. So at a minimum it is better than that transportation solution. Honestly, even with the existing frame damage it is likely safer than my 9-year old Prius that I currently drive. So the reinforcements I would like to place are just extra icing on the cake although completely necessary.

Talking with the Society of Automotive Engineering faculty advisor, his analysis of the B-pillar was that all I'd really need to do is re-shape the metal and then throw in some high-density foam in the center to reinforce it and be done. He didn't think reinforcing it with welding was necessary, although certainly an option. His qualifications include 20+ years an automotive mechanical engineer, and one of the patent holders for regenerative braking (US6231135 B1 Glenn R. Bower).

My goal is to give a solid effort to make it as safe as is reasonably possible, but if "Tesla approved" is supposed to mean "factory condition" then I've misunderstood Tesla's threshold on safety and agree that is unrealistic. Tesla certainly has justifiable reason to have strict safety guidelines on production vehicles that have clean titles as it affects their brand image. However, such a strict safety guideline is not a viable business model in the long term.

Furthermore rebuilt salvage vehicles should not be held to the same standards as a regular vehicle... they literally brand the title of the rebuilt car for this reason. A salvage vehicle not meeting their factory standards of safety has no impact upon their reputation as a vehicle manufacturer.

If Tesla truly is to maintain the claim that "they will not compromise on safety", then they will need to start selling airbags unconditionally as requiring their own service and restricting the part is putting their economic, logistical, and political interests above safety. Even if they claim expertise on the relative safety of a car via inspection, if they truly are interested in safety then selling airbags without any strings attached should be a priority.

TL;DR I'm not claiming the ability to restore to factory condition. I am claiming that, as is, it is safer than the current Prius I drive purely because of the increased crumple zones available in front and rear. That said, if reinforcing some key areas adds additional safety at a reasonable amount of effort and expense it is worth it. Tesla also should sell airbags unconditionally if they really truly care about safety, any claim otherwise is malarkey.
 
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Only way to fix this car properly is to cut the car all the way length wise and weld a new half on it. I have parted cars out that were in better shape than this. I think this should be a parts car.

I appreciate your input and expertise. After consulting with an experienced automotive mechanical engineer, I have come to the conclusion that the repairs I will perform are more than sufficient for my threshold of safety for the vehicle.

In fact, strongly believe that such repairs would yield a car that is safer than my current modes of transportation (a 9 year old prius with no accident history and a motorcycle).

Thank you.
 
As far as looks go, when it comes to function vs. fashion, I'm a huge function guy. I will try to make it look as nice as reasonably possible, but I'm not expecting "factory quality" visuals.

Similar case for safety. As is, it is safer than me commuting to/from work via motorcycle. It also has better performance the my motorcycle too. So at a minimum it is better than that transportation solution. Honestly, even with the existing frame damage it is likely safer than my 9-year old Prius that I currently drive. So the reinforcements I would like to place are just extra icing on the cake although completely necessary.

Talking with the Society of Automotive Engineering faculty advisor, his analysis of the B-pillar was that all I'd really need to do is re-shape the metal and then throw in some high-density foam in the center to reinforce it and be done. He didn't think reinforcing it with welding was necessary, although certainly an option. His qualifications include 20+ years an automotive mechanical engineer, and one of the patent holders for regenerative braking (US6231135 B1 Glenn R. Bower).

My goal is to give a solid effort to make it as safe as is reasonably possible, but if "Tesla approved" is supposed to mean "factory condition" then I've misunderstood Tesla's threshold on safety and agree that is unrealistic. Tesla certainly has justifiable reason to have strict safety guidelines on production vehicles that have clean titles as it affects their brand image. However, such a strict safety guideline is not a viable business model in the long term.

Furthermore rebuilt salvage vehicles should not be held to the same standards as a regular vehicle... they literally brand the title of the rebuilt car for this reason. A salvage vehicle not meeting their factory standards of safety has no impact upon their reputation as a vehicle manufacturer.

If Tesla truly is to maintain the claim that "they will not compromise on safety", then they will need to start selling airbags unconditionally as requiring their own service and restricting the part is putting their economic, logistical, and political interests above safety. Even if they claim expertise on the relative safety of a car via inspection, if they truly are interested in safety then selling airbags without any strings attached should be a priority.




CLIFF NOTES "It will be good enough"
 
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Tesla will not compromise on safety of cars that is the whole reason they are giving this salvage cold shoulder. If someone dies in a Model S or if it starts on fire in a collision because body was not fixed properly and was not able to protect the battery during a crash, news channels are not going to say a "Salvage model S started on fire because it was not properly repaired" . They are going to say Tesla electric car started on fire people died! A salvage car should always be just as safe as a non salvage car. I'm sure you can spray foam in there and throw 5lb of bondo and drive the car around. In my book its not really fixing the car unless its within factory specs. You can just take all airbags out, take out all the doors cut off the roof and have a model s convertible, and you can argue that its still is safer than a motorcycle. If some one comes to our shop and just tells us, pull it a little here throw some bondo there, we will not do its too much of a liability. Car manufacturers spend 10's of millions of dollars to research and develop a car as safe as possible by butchering the car you throw all that research away.
 
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Tesla will not compromise on safety of cars that is the whole reason they are giving this salvage cold shoulder. If someone dies in a Model S or if it starts on fire in a collision because body was not fixed properly and was not able to protect the battery during a crash, news channels are not going to say a "Salvage model S started on fire because it was not properly repaired" . They are going to say Tesla electric car started on fire people died! A salvage car should always be just as safe as a non salvage car. I'm sure you can spray foam in there and throw 5lb of bondo and drive the car around. In my book its not really fixing the car unless its within factory specs. You can just take all airbags out, take out all the doors cut off the roof and have a model s convertible, and you can argue that its still is safer than a motorcycle. If some one comes to our shop and just tells us, pull it a little here throw some bondo there, we will not do its too much of a liability. Car manufacturers spend 10's of millions of dollars to research and develop a car as safe as possible by butchering the car you throw all that research away.

Huh, where have I heard that before?

The problem is not your intention, the problem is that most likely the media will jump at the story without giving you the opportunity to clarify the situation.

Oh yeah... now we've come full circle.

So let's focus on the main point, "Tesla will not compromise on safety."

Tesla is already compromising on safety by not selling airbags to salvage vehicles unconditionally.

Yes, Tesla is concerned about bad press, but if your concern is "Death while in a salvage Tesla Model S" then airbags are a good tool to prevent death in a model S. Restricting access to airbags increases the possibility of death because it encourages salvage owners to drive their vehicle without airbags.

In my case, I have the requisite skills to fit a different manufacturer's airbags to my model S and if Tesla doesn't change it's mind, will do so, pass salvage inspection, and be driving to my hearts content.

The parts ban is not effective at preventing salvage cars from getting on the road. Watch this thread & BTR's thread for an example. In fact, the parts ban is counter-productive as it encourages people to purchase used parts from other salvage vehicles that do not have as high quality as OEM parts. There is already a proliferation of used parts for this purpose.

I'll tell you what is effective though, giving reasonable quotes for parts and service so that way an insurance company doesn't total the car in the first place. This would dramatically decrease the number of repairable salvage cars available at salvage auctions.

It would also stop insurance companies from raising the cost to insure a Tesla model S. It would make sure insurance companies don't decide that a model S is uninsurable. If the model S is deemed uninsurable, guess what's likely to happen next? The model 3 isn't even given a chance to prove itself and insurance companies just outright won't insure a Tesla vehicle.

Tesla is slowly killing itself with this parts ban.

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The major fire prevention device in the model S is the pyroswitch that cuts off high voltage when the car is in an accident. I will be replacing that part. If there are more fire suppression devices you'd like me to inspect, please let me know so I can make sure they are properly operational.

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Car manufacturers spend 10's of millions of dollars to research and develop a car as safe as possible by butchering the car you throw all that research away.

They do indeed, and as a person actively involved in research and development I have absolute respect for this research.

It is because of this high quality research that Tesla has conducted that I will be driving in a car that is safer than what other cars I presently own.

If the response then becomes "Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.
 
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I don't agree with tesla's policy by any means them not selling parts to black listed cars. I also see a reason why they are doing it, they are trying to control cars and make sure that they are properly repaired. Tesla was happy to sell me an airbag, once their certified shop approved that my car was fixed within factory standard, in fact they even installed it for free. Tesla actually paid more money to their certified body shop to look at my car and tell them that it was repaired properly than what I paid for the re-certification process. If they did not make money on this recertification process it leaves me to think that they did it because they care about their image and they are concerned with safety of a model S owner.
 
Pyrofuse works great to create an open in the HVIL but if an object punctures through the bat it will not reduce a risk of fire. Rockers are very strong in a model S the entire rocker has a honeycomb patterned aluminum cross member going through it. It is there to protect the battery from side impact damage. When your A pillar and B pillar was bent it pulled the rocker up roof down so that entire rocker is compromised. It is probably strong enough to withstand another hit, but maybe not and no one knows. Its like driving with 3 lug bolts in a wheel it will probably ok but its not engineered so.
I also would love to know how you plan to work aluminum, it will not bend very much but will crack very good. Best solution is to get a car crashed in the front and use your front clip to fix it.
 
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CLIFF NOTES "It will be good enough"

Wait... is this satoshi who's considering ignoring Tesla's standards in repairing a Model S, and knowingly putting it on the road where it may indeed be less safe the same satoshi who was adamant that attempting repairs that were not up to standard would result in things such as:

satoshi said:
Parts not being sold is a HUGE detriment to innovation, so absolutely not. You guys need to realize the seriousness of your actions and the consequences they've laid.

satoshi said:
Buzzkill as I may be, this is why we can't buy parts anymore.:mad:

satoshi said:
Part of the reason I got hysterically angry at you guys is feeling punished for something I had no involvement in, and that wrath was hoping to express to Tesla that not everyone is going to go about repairing vehicles so carelessly.

And, perhaps the most interesting:

satoshi said:
The problem is not your intention, the problem is that most likely the media will jump at the story without giving you the opportunity to clarify the situation.
??

Just wondering....
 
First off I'm still interested in listening to your response to this:

If the response then becomes "Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.

Pyrofuse works great to create an open in the HVIL but if an object punctures through the bat it will not reduce a risk of fire.

Noting a distinctive lack of damage to the battery pack (inspected it on arrival while it was still on the 2nd floor of the transport truck), the risk of puncture is no greater than your average model S.

Rockers are very strong in a model S the entire rocker has a honeycomb patterned aluminum cross member going through it. It is there to protect the battery from side impact damage. When your A pillar and B pillar was bent it pulled the rocker up roof down so that entire rocker is compromised.

First, where did you get the impression the A pillar is bent? Are we talking about the same vehicle?

I'm having a hard time understanding what "rocker up roof down" is supposed to mean, I normally do not complain about grammar but it is affecting my ability to understand the meaning of your sentence.

It is probably strong enough to withstand another hit, but maybe not and no one knows. Its like driving with 3 lug bolts in a wheel it will probably ok but its not engineered so.
I also would love to know how you plan to work aluminum, it will not bend very much but will crack very good. Best solution is to get a car crashed in the front and use your front clip to fix it.

This was why I was more leaning towards cutting out and welding rather than bending.

If I were to attempt a bend, I would support the vehicle roof to remove stress on the repair area, heat the area that needs bending, and then work it into the fixed position. Aluminum will become brittle if bent at low temperatures, but if heated to sufficient temperature the aluminum will soften and allow itself to be worked with. Then when it cools it will regain its structural integrity in the appropriate shape.
 
Wait... is this satoshi who's considering ignoring Tesla's standards in repairing a Model S, and knowingly putting it on the road where it may indeed be less safe the same satoshi who was adamant that attempting repairs that were not up to standard would result in things such as:

Yes, and I pointed this out earlier in the thread. It's typically a good idea to change your mind when presented with new information that challenges prior beliefs. That's how one learns.

The fact that I've changed my mind should suggest that Tesla is unrealistic with its standards. It should also suggest that Tesla needs to place repairability as an area of improvement for future designs.

If Tesla would like to persist in maintaining unrealistic standards, I've pointed out already that it is an unsustainable business model. I detailed how insurance companies will increase premiums in response to this, possibly even making the car uninsurable before the model 3 comes out, and maybe making the model 3 uninsurable before it comes out.

If Tesla wishes to continue on a path of self-destruction, it will be throwing out the best attempt at making EVs the amazing vehicle that they can be. I have changed my mind because sufficient evidence has accumulated to support that I was wrong to berate BTR when I did.

Some points:

-I've consulted with an automotive mechanical engineer with significant experience to verify potential solutions to repairing frame damage. From there I've explicitly stated, that I will be doing a mechanical analysis of the proposed repair. I will also consult with a structural engineer sometime in the near future for more input. I would say that consulting with experts on structural integrity is about the most careful one can reasonably be when it comes to repairing frame damage.

"Part of the reason I got hysterically angry at you guys is feeling punished for something I had no involvement in, and that wrath was hoping to express to Tesla that not everyone is going to go about repairing vehicles so carelessly."

I still did not have involvement at the time the ban started, so you really can't pin the parts ban on me.

I'm interested in your response to this:

If the response then becomes "Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.
 
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I guess I'm wondering why the media would not also blow any accident/injury/death out of proportion if a sub-standard repair was invovled, as you were so concerned about, if the bar for your car is:

satoshi said:
I'm not expecting "factory quality" visuals.

Similar case for safety...
 
You posted that in response to zhur0002.

Are you expecting a response from me in regards a question originally posed to him?

Yes. Now less avoiding the question, and more answering the question.

To recap:

-This particular salvage model S has damage that needs repair, but in current condition is safer than the alternative modes of transportation available to myself. These include a motorcycle and a 9 year old toyota prius.

The larger crumple zones available in the model S make it significantly safer than the Prius even with damage to its left side.

If the primary concern is how the media will react if I die in a car crash driving a salvage model S, yet driving the undamaged Prius is more likely to result in death in the event of a car crash, and Tesla is discouraging the use of salvage titles, it would appear that Tesla's primary concern is not safety, but instead public relations.