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A dilemma about a Ford Mustang Mach E on Order - What would you do?

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joebruin77

Active Member
Dec 23, 2018
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1,420
Encino, CA
I love my 2018 Tesla P3D. A few months ago, my wife and I decided to buy her an EV. Although I was hoping she would get another Tesla, she test drove and loved the Ford Mustang Mach E . So back in Dec, 2021, we ordered a 2022 Ford MME GTPE. It is scheduled to arrive in mid July.

We were both very excited about her new MME, but we are concerned about the recent safety recall. For those of you who do not know, there is a possibility of the capacitors welding closed. This has occurred in about 290 out of all of the MME's on the road. Ford issued a software update to address the issue. Our Ford dealer said once the software update is installed, we can take delivery of the car.

Part of me wants to complete the purchase, especially since we locked in the Dec 2021 pricing and can get the $7,500 federal tax rebate. But I also want my wife to drive a car that is reliable. We could still get the car and just be sure to get the extended warranty if there is a problem. Or we could pass on the car all together and get either another Tesla or maybe a Hyundai Ioniq 5.

Any thoughts on this situation are welcome. I need some objective advice.

Thank you,
Joe
 
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Um. Joe. I'm not sure that the problem I recently heard about with the Mach-E is the one about the welded capacitors you're referencing, but I recently heard about some kind of whacko problem with the Mach-E where, if one did full throttle for ~30 seconds, Damage would occur that resulted in Lots of Money trading hands. Something about the entire battery pack having to get removed in order to get to the failed components.

Just found the thing: Here's a link. Seems that contactors (i.e., big relays) are getting fried. One comment I read about this was that the "software fix" was to limit the acceleration of the car to prevent the overheating. Um. That last is a rumor, suggest going to a Mach-E forum to find out if that is, indeed, the solution. But if that's what's going on:
  1. Ford will likely change the specs on the contactors to use ones that don't have a problem with the current. That may or may not happen in Real Time.
  2. They're likely not to replace old, not-so-well performing ones. (Apparently, a battery drop, not a simple matter, is required to get to those contactors.)
  3. Um. Never heard of a Tesla having issues with full throttle driving. Kind of the opposite, actually, given the existence of things like the Model 3 P, Model Y P, and the Model S Plaid, all going around racing tracks at high speed.
  4. I, personally, don't drive around with that kind of heavy foot. Partly because I don't drive that way, partly because I don't want to get arrested for speeding. If you really like the car and don't care about zipping around, well. But one of the joys of having a Model 3 is, when turning right onto a busy 4-lane local road, it doesn't take much of a gap to turn right and get up to speed without worrying the other cars on the highway. That sure wasn't true of the Civic or Prius I used to drive around in.
I dunno. If I were you, I wouldn't buy the Mach-E, at least not until Ford states unequivocably that they've permanently fixed the issue with better parts and not a limiter built into the software.

Of course, you're asking this question on a Tesla forum. The answer on a Mach-E forum might very well be different. But, still..

For what it's worth, I went through something like this before. Gen 3 Priuses in the 2011 time frame had issues in the motor controller where high-power FETs were cracking their connection to a massive, water-cooled heat sink. This is suspected to be a rate-of-change-of-temperature vs. expansion coefficient; that is, the chips got hot, first, expanded, causing stress to the underlying mounting material which hadn't warmed up yet, thereby cracking the chip off the mounting material. The solution was three-fold:
  1. Slow down the rate of change of current in the motor controller on fast acceleration. Note: This didn't say that full-throttle current was a problem; it was just getting to full-throttle current was an issue. This allowed the heat sink to warm up so the stress wouldn't reach breaking-the-part-off levels. Result was a tenth of a second slow-down on zero to 60 times.
  2. Diagnostics run on existing cars. Turns out that there are ways to measure die temperatures in there; presumably a higher-than-normal temperature than the other dies indicated a cracking issue, with a new motor inverter being the preferred replacement solution.
  3. Extended the power train warranty by a year and 30,000 miles.
(There's evidence that Toyota figured out a way for dealerships to do the repair without actually replacing the entire inverter.)

Despite all that and getting the update right away, the following year one of those dies popped off the inverter heat sink and the car died in Connecticut. I was given a loaner; it took a local dealer a week to find parts and fix it. The car's still running around today with 150k miles+ on it.

Thing is, that was Toyota. And, while it was Trouble for Toyota to do the repairs, the inverter in the Prius is Right There under the hood where one can see it, no pulling the whole motor or something to do the repair. The Ford Mach-E repair involves pulling the battery pack.. a lot more expensive.
 
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There are some very good aspects to the Mach-E. You ordered by far the best one, the GTPE with Magneride. Good handling and ride quality, whereas the lessor model suspensions are just plain bad. The GTPE was on our short list last year. (Tested Premium AWD and GTPE.)

But knowing what I know now about the Mach-E's thermal problems and OTA issues...I wouldn't touch one, nor recommend one to anyone no matter how closely it seems match their preferences. It's almost a good car. Could've been, should've been, but isn't. I would stay away. (And that became my opinion even before this new recall landed!)
 
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Well, counter point maybe, but FWIW, my wife drives a MME GT PE and loves it. In many ways i also like it better than my plaid. Build quality seems a step above, bluecruise seems much more mature than autopilot, and it just feels more like a traditional car, no real gizmo factor. Not sure about the recall issue, maybe we’re one trip from failure, but so far its been great.
 
Just how reliable does your wife’s car need to be? Nothing’s perfect, plenty of Teslas have issues.

What’s going to be worse, her car needing service or talking her into something she doesn’t want?

This is sort of where I would land, as well (meaning "its the car she wants, so that would mean it would need to have a specific reason we shouldnt get it). With that being said, to me, this seems like a "specific reason you shouldnt buy it".

@joebruin77 have you considered leasing the vehicle (I know all the gotchas around leasing, but would limit your exposure to long term issues this way even if you cant buy it at lease end).
 
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I love my 2018 Tesla P3D. A few months ago, my wife and I decided to buy her an EV. Although I was hoping she would get another Tesla, she test drove and loved the Ford Mustang Mach E . So back in Dec, 2021, we ordered a 2022 Ford MME GTPE. It is scheduled to arrive in mid July.

We were both very excited about her new MME, but we are concerned about the recent safety recall. For those of you who do not know, there is a possibility of the capacitors welding closed. This has occurred in about 290 out of all of the MME's on the road. Ford issued a software update to address the issue. Our Ford dealer said once the software update is installed, we can take delivery of the car.

Part of me wants to complete the purchase, especially since we locked in the Dec 2021 pricing and can get the $7,500 federal tax rebate. But I also want my wife to drive a car that is reliable. We could still get the car and just be sure to get the extended warranty if there is a problem. Or we could pass on the car all together and get either another Tesla or maybe a Hyundai Ioniq 5.

Any thoughts on this situation are welcome. I need some objective advice.

Thank you,
Joe
Considering there's a stop order on ALL Mach-E's how are you gonna buy one? You should know there's a massive recall on them too. You should realllly read up on the state of the E, it's really a POS.
 
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Nothing’s perfect, plenty of Teslas have issues.
Ford have sold about a few tens of thousands of MachE, go check their forums, so many stories about people stranded, having to get the car towed at own expense , paak issues, they are literally melting parts right now even after the 'fix'

Tesla sells 10 times what the MachE has in just the last quarter and every problem with just 1 car ends up headline news.

If there was any real fundamental issue you'd be seeing it front page of every website.
 
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The point about making your wife happy even if it means a less trustworthy car is a good one. Explain the Mach-E's issues to your wife though and let her decide if it's still worthwhile to her.

She might decide on her own it's not worth the problems. Or if she really loves the GTPE that much to risk / deal with its issues, then you know it's the right car for her and at least you're both going in with knowledge.

My wife liked the GTPE a lot (as did I!), but I guarantee knowing the extent of its issues now, my wife would hard pass on it.
 
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My wife relies on my limited knowledge of the car world while car-shopping because she is not a “gearhead” or a “techie”. She wants a vehicle that suits her taste in style/comfort and wants all the latest driver assist features. But the top priority is always reliability. Everything else is secondary.

While charging our car recently she noticed a Mach E at a nearby charging station and commented that she really liked the styling. Not my cup of tea, but it might grow on me. She is considering an EV, just not right away.

She would want to get rid of it the first time it left her stranded. I wouldn’t be able to explain why it left her on the roadside, it wouldn’t matter to her.
 
This is sort of where I would land, as well (meaning "its the car she wants, so that would mean it would need to have a specific reason we shouldnt get it). With that being said, to me, this seems like a "specific reason you shouldnt buy it".

@joebruin77 have you considered leasing the vehicle (I know all the gotchas around leasing, but would limit your exposure to long term issues this way even if you cant buy it at lease end).

I appreciate the suggestion. I am actually not that worried about the financial costs. I figure I can always sell the car if it turns out to be problematic. My main concern is the thought of my wife being stranded somewhere because the car is undriveable.
 
To everyone who took the time to reply, I really appreciate your input and suggestions. For those of you who are interested, here is an update on my decision:

1) The safety recall issue, which has to do with a faulty capacitor design, has caused about 286 out of the roughly 100,000 MME's sold to break down. They needed to be towed to the nearest Ford dealer and then the part had to be replaced. Ford has issued a software update. It seems like the software update does not necessarily prevent the problem, but it makes the car more driveable if a problem occurs (this is not a fact, just the theory and opinion of some MME owners on the MME forum). Instead of a "stop safely now" message, the car will reduce power and say "service soon". The actual fail rate of this part is around .2 percent of all MME's sold. It is suspected that any MME that has the car replaced is getting a new part that is more robust and a lot less prone to breaking down.

2) I could be wrong, but it seems like most of the MME's affected are earlier models. Of course, this could be due to the fact that these are the models with more mileage. But it could also be that the most recent MME's coming off the line have had improvements to reduce the possibility of a problem. This is something I am researching.

3) I ordered my MME back in 12-2021. So I locked in the price at the time of ordering. If I were to order the same car today, it would be $5K or so more. Plus, if I wait for a year or two, I will likely miss out on the $7,500 federal tax rebate.

4) I realize the used car market could cool with higher interest rates. But if the MME turns out to be problematic, I can just sell it. Given my pricing from 12-21 as well as the federal rebate, I would not really lose too much money. Unless MME resale values go down because of this recall issue.

5) This weekend, my wife and I test drove the Hyundai Ioniq 5 as well as the Kia EV6. While they are both solid cars, both my wife and I strongly preferred the EV6 over the Ioniq 5. However, we also both prefer the MME GTPE over either one of these alternatives.

We have not yet made a final decision and I am reading all of the helpful posts here. Thank you again!
Joe
 
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To everyone who took the time to reply, I really appreciate your input and suggestions. For those of you who are interested, here is an update on my decision:

1) The safety recall issue, which has to do with a faulty capacitor design, has caused about 286 out of the roughly 100,000 MME's sold to break down. They needed to be towed to the nearest Ford dealer and then the part had to be replaced. Ford has issued a software update. It seems like the software update does not necessarily prevent the problem, but it makes the car more driveable if a problem occurs (this is not a fact, just the theory and opinion of some MME owners on the MME forum). Instead of a "stop safely now" message, the car will reduce power and say "service soon". The actual fail rate of this part is around .2 percent of all MME's sold. It is suspected that any MME that has the car replaced is getting a new part that is more robust and a lot less prone to breaking down.

2) I could be wrong, but it seems like most of the MME's affected are earlier models. Of course, this could be due to the fact that these are the models with more mileage. But it could also be that the most recent MME's coming off the line have had improvements to reduce the possibility of a problem. This is something I am researching.

3) I ordered my MME back in 12-2021. So I locked in the price at the time of ordering. If I were to order the same car today, it would be $5K or so more. Plus, if I wait for a year or two, I will likely miss out on the $7,500 federal tax rebate.

4) I realize the used car market could cool with higher interest rates. But if the MME turns out to be problematic, I can just sell it. Given my pricing from 12-21 as well as the federal rebate, I would not really lose too much money. Unless MME resale values go down because of this recall issue.

5) This weekend, my wife and I test drove the Hyundai Ioniq 5 as well as the Kia EV6. While they are both solid cars, both my wife and I strongly preferred the EV6 over the Ioniq 5. However, we also both prefer the MME GTPE over either one of these alternatives.

We have not yet made a final decision and I am reading all of the helpful posts here. Thank you again!
Joe
@joebruin77: Got a minor syntax error for you to clean up.

I've been doing the reading and all. It's not a CAPACITOR, it's a CONTACTOR that's driving the Mach-E guys nuts. I know, I know: I'm a EE, so I get upset about this kind of thing.

A capacitor: Two conductors separated by a non-conductor. The Capacitance, in Farads, of a capacitor are (nominally) C = eps*A/d, where A is the area, d is the distance between the conductors, and eps is the permitivity and is equal to 8.854*10^(-7) * eps(r), where eps(r) is 1.0 for a vacuum or air and various other things, like 4.6 for epoxy circuit boards. A 100 microFarad capacitor is on the largish side. Used in AC circuits everywhere to pass AC signals and stop DC signals. Symbol:
1656890946860.png
. Picture of one:
1656891154509.png


A contactor is a Relay. Usually mechanical. Has contacts. Goes "click" when activated; goes "clunk" when it's a big one. Mechanical relays/contactors may have one set of contacts or many of them and are usually activated by a magnetic coil. That is, run some current though this coil, it makes a magnetic field, and attracts a (usually) spring loaded arm that does the "clunk" noise.

There's a bunch of specs with every part (what else is new) but the big ones with contactors are (a) how much current can it carry and (b) how much voltage can it withstand when it's open (as compared to shut). Itty bitty relays go down to milliamps. Nearly everybody who has a HVAC system of any kind has a Contactor in it that switches 220 VAC (minimum, we're not talking the industrial A/C plants) at somewhere between 20A and 100A. Those of you who have the Tesla Wall Connector have heard the one inside of that beast every time one starts charging the car: There's a notable "clunk" when it lets fly. Symbol:
1656891631925.png

Picture of one:
1656891721200.png

Notice the coil of wire at the bottom 😁.

The deal with contactors, and why Life Gets Difficult for Designers: Say you've got a closed contactor conducting hundreds of amperes. That means you've got two fancy looking blocks of metal with $DIETY's own strange metallurgy shoved up next to each other. Silver plating on top of nickel on top of copper, or gold plating on top of nickel on top of copper, or some weird alloy that I've never heard of, all with the idea of minimal heating with all that current passing through. The Really Big Guys can be a half-inch across or bigger.

But that's not all! Say that you want to open that contactor. Given EV's, let's say that there's 300VDC hanging around. When one depowers the contactor, those two contacts start moving apart from each other. Let's say they're on their way, but they're only a millimeter apart. 300V across a millimeter means that one is going to Get an Arc. As in, Lightning Bolt Time. When a lightning bolt hits that fancy metallurgy, things tend to melt and vaporize. So the people who build contactors are Really Big on moving the contacts away from each other Really, Really, Fast, the faster the better, with the eventual air gap big enough to quench the arc.

As a natural result of this, the contacts tend to get pitted over time. And one's fancy metallurgy gets plated all over the place. There's various means to cut back on the arcing; snubbers, for one, where the energy that would go into arcing and destroying the contacts gets dumped through a capacitor (ha!) and a resistor, with a resistor absorbing the excess energy.

Those of you who are old enough to remember ICE distributors and (shudder) "points" might remember that the points in the distributor were replaced as part of a general auto tune up.. along with a small item named a, "condensor". That condensor was a combination capacitor and resistor in series and would attempt to keep the points (read: electrical contacts inside the distributor that basically supplied the energy to the spark plugs in a car) from getting too badly pitted over time. Just like with contactors.

From the sounds of it, the contacts in the contactor in the for Mach-E are getting welded to each other and Not Opening Up Any More. That happens when there's extensive pitting, high resistance, lots of heat as a result, and from there Bad Things Happen. Also sounds like it takes time for it to happen; that is, the pitting is happening when the contactor de-energizes, each time the situation gets worse, and eventually it falls off the cliff and is Dead, Dead, Dead.

Or maybe it is the snubber getting damaged. The snubber is a resistor and capacitor in series; the resistor is a couple of ohms, the capacitor is high impedance at, say, 60 Hz, but is nearly a dead short at, say, 100 kHz. Say one has one's furnance and turns it off. As the contacts open up, there's this big inductive kick from the furnace blower motor windings that try to keep the current going; it's a spike with a very fast rise time. Fast rise time spikes pass easily through that capacitor; the resistor then eats the motor winding energy and, ta-da, not much arcing at the contacts.

For this to work, the resistor is probably a couple of watt rating; and the capacitor has to have a voltage rating of, say for a house, a thousand volts or so. But if somebody put in a cheap cap that only had a rating of, say, 300V on a 240 VAC circuit, it might work for a while - but eventually the cap would break down. In that case, one ends up with (typically) one of two things: A capacitor turned into vapor, in which case it doesn't do its snubber work too well, or it turns into a short. Which would then mean that the couple ohm resistor that normally only dissipates the occasional spike would suddenly have 240 VAC across it when the contactor opens, which means that the resistor would turn into vapor, or make a fire.

No question: Turning high-power systems on and off is not for the faint of heart. If I had to guess what happened with Ford, they probably specified a decent part. Then, one puts oneself in the hands of one's suppliers. Some supplier trying to save on expensive metals (metallurgy again), or expensive, high quality capacitors could have easily sabotaged Ford's efforts.
 

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All the Mach-Es with the same faulty part are equally likely to fail at some point. I would not trust anything Ford has to say in terms of percentages or likelihood of failure or even the actual failure numbers. So, you're playing Russian Roulette driving one of these long distances until an actual fix is in place.

Another point to consider is that everything that has been posted so far about the new part that's supposed to fix the problem is all speculation. There is a new part based on a different part number, but that's the only sure facts that are known about it until someone posts something substantial or Ford comes forward with new info.

Lastly, there are other issues plaguing the Mach-E besides the recall. Some of them pretty serious. One example is the car going forward when the selector is in reverse or vice-versa and there seems to be no definite fix. Another is 1 pedal drive turning off expectedly at certain times. And they are difficult to troubleshoot since they come and go.

Now you can point to Tesla and say there are random issues that happen as well, some serious and you might be right. But there are a lot more Teslas on the road and they are better at dealing with these random problems. They're also better at solving them via software when possible. Ford isn't and often doesn't seem to care enough to actually come up with permanent fixes.

If your wife is driving around town mostly and is OK with random quirks, a few of which can make the car undriveable for a while or to the point of needing a tow, then sure, take the plunge. If long trips are going to be common, then you're entering dangerous territory if it decides to shut down at the worst possible time.
 
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