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A longer range Tesla

Discussion in 'Future Cars' started by daniel Ox9EFD, Oct 13, 2014.

  1. daniel Ox9EFD

    daniel Ox9EFD Member

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    I propose a lobby for a longer range Tesla.

    This would go a long way to hush much of the criticism of EV's regarding 'range anxiety'.
    If a Tesla can go 0 - 60 mph in 3.2 sec, why not give up on some performance (and price) to check just how much battery can be stuffed into a sedan?

    Imagine a 500 mile range EV. Better range than you would get from a gas car. What a perception changer that would be!
     
  2. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Patience grasshopper. It will come soon enough, when the battery technology is mature. To do it with today's batteries would make it 6000 pounds heavy or something.
     
  3. ilovtesl

    ilovtesl Member

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    I agree thats the kind of electric car I would be willing to spend money on
     
  4. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    Do you really think the extra range is worth the $20-30k you'd have to pay for it, and the space/usable load/efficiency you'd lose?

    With the Supercharger network becoming fairly mature, I don't see the added value as being worth the added cost for me (or most people I'd think - but YMMV always applies.)

    Right now bigger batteries cost Tesla money, because they'd reduce the number of cars Tesla can build/sell. They recently (last year?) took out some patents for a hybrid battery - adding an aluminum air primary battery to the car (possibly in the frunk, which the AWD addition of big HV wiring to the front of the car makes more practical.) Possibly they'll be offering that as a range extender at some point, maybe.
    Walter
     
  5. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    have to agree. i charge my car every three days. i have gone cross country and used the superchargers but not very often. i find it a good practice to get out of the car every 3-4 hrs otherwise fatigue sets in and dont mind the stops.
     
  6. N4HHE

    N4HHE Member

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    The 85 kWh battery already weighs 1400 pounds. Double the kWh and have to at least double the 1400 pounds. The running gear will have to be heavier to carry more battery. More battery will be needed to carry stronger running gear and the increased battery mass. If all one has to do is add another 1400 pounds of battery then we're 6,100 pounds. There is a point of greatly diminishing returns because more battery for more miles has to be carried all those miles which drains the original battery. So maybe you need 3x the battery to go 2x the range?

    No, I think building out the Supercharger network is a better solution. 30 minutes every 3 hours is good enough to make long trips practical if only they would build on roads I want to drive.
     
  7. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    They did introduce a longer range Tesla. It's a S85D with 295 miles of range @ 65 mph which is a 13.5% increase over the S85 (which was basically 260 mile range @ 65 mph). See: Model S Efficiency and Range | Blog | Tesla Motors

    There are packaging - space and weight issues for adding additional battery sheets. Let's say you add 300 pounds of battery somewhere (the rough weight gain of the P85D). That's about 100-105 kWh. That will likely cost $6,000. With a single drive motor, that will not give you a 25% range improvement due to the additional weight. In stop and go traffic, this might actually decrease your range - it will definitely have a lower efficiency. At a steady 65 mph, you will have higher rolling resistance, so let's say you gain 20% additional range. That's 312 miles of range for $6,000 more.

    The only way it makes sense to increase the battery capacity is when the new battery chemistry ships, most likely timed around the Gigafactory. Even then, don't expect miracles in specific energy.

    To sum up... dual drive, increases range by 13.5%, increases efficiency for $4k. Bump up battery by 25% percent, increases range by say 20%, decreases efficiency for $6k.
     
  8. Rashomon

    Rashomon Member

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    3.5 Ah 18650s will be available next year, which would boost the 85 kWh pack to about 93 kWh, or about a 9 percent improvement. There's a good chance they will have a lower power rating than the current 3.2 Ah Panasonic Tesla cells, which might reduce acceleration a bit -- but you would get about 320 miles at 65 mph with no weight penalty, just a cost penalty. Over the next few years, there will probably be another 15-20 percent improvement in energy density, and the 20700 cells rumored from the gigafactory should have a little more energy density just from engineering (as opposed to chemistry) improvements. The top S should creep up toward 400 mile range if Tesla wants it to. At some point, there really is a trade-off between range, weight, and cost that most customers won't want to go beyond, so it may be a long time before we see a 500 mile Tesla.
     
  9. wallet.dat

    wallet.dat Member

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    That's a fair trade off. I mean how often do you find yourself planting your foot to the floor from a dead stop? For me, it's about as often as I test the top speed.
     
  10. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

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    I think most of the posts miss the point of the op (Daniel Ox9EFD) and one I've wondered about too, especially after the D announcement and the surprising range improvement at 65 mph. If a 85 can get 295 range with 564 hp what would the range improvement be if the dual motors had only 400 hp? There are many people who could care less for fast 0-60 times so why not offer a 85D kWh with smaller front and rear motors and higher range? After all if Elon's goal is to push EV adoption why is it so important to have this fixation on 0-60 times since the energy draw reduces range?

    What size motors would you need to produce a 0-60 time in 8 seconds and what battery range improvement could you get? Sure batteries will get better in the future but if EV adoption is Elon's goal why not offer the highest range possible with the current battery technology. And then when you do have improved batteries from the gigafactory range will be that much better for the "low end" performance model. Of course, if the battery experts in the forum agree that the improvement in range with smaller motors wouldn't be that much then that is fine too and what we have now is just fine.
     
  11. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    Actually, it isn't about the size of the motor. That's why a P85 and a S85 get basically the same efficiency numbers. It's about the reduction gearing combined with the tuning of the motors. In a dual drive system, one drivetrain is optimized for starting from 0 mph and the other is optimized for highway cruising and the car blends the two together. It is likely that the gearing of the front motor is such that acceleration from 0 mph is not particularly good. If you took the S85D single front motor only and stuck it in the back, the 0-60 times are going to be far worse than 9 seconds. Your gain in efficiency would likely be minimal at 65mph.
     
  12. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    All the time:)
     
  13. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    patience_grasshopper.jpg
     
  14. Reykjavik

    Reykjavik Member

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    I don't think limited range is what causes range anxiety. The problem is that charging an EV is fundamentally different than filling up a car. Pretending it is like a gas car where you take it to a specialized filling station once a week, and that driving hundreds of miles without ever recharging is normal misses the point.

    EVs are different, and the difference is awesome. You get a full tank every morning when you wake up, and you never have to stop for fuel during normal use.
     
  15. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    IMO if the Model X will have a larger battery pack (I read something about this matter on TMC) also the Model S will get it. Than we could have the Model S P110D ? :cool:
     
  16. Model 3

    Model 3 Active Member

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    Well - this is exactly what they have done. They have even a 60D with the smaller front and rear motors and a higher range (then the 60 without D).
     
  17. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

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    Then why not do the same thing with the 85?
     
  18. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    OK, I see. You're asking for a less powerful Model S. They won't do that because the cost reduction wouldn't shift the needle enough to make it worth it.

    Wait for Model 3 or 4 when other costs are low enough to make it worth it.
     
  19. Model 3

    Model 3 Active Member

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    They have.... It's called 85D. The one they have not done this with is the P85D. That has the old motor in the rear, and a new smaller motor in the front.
     
  20. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

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    All I am asking is what additional range could the 85 get if it was less powerful? Cost reduction is not the goal. Clearly many feel 0-60 times have to be better than Tesla's competitors. I am just asking because I do not know, what additional range could the 85 get if it had the performance of a Camry or similar popular car? For many that is unthinkable I am just questioning why? As I stated before if the battery experts on the forum feel very little range is possible than I'm completely fine with that. Again, cost reduction is not really the question, range is.

    Not really. Why not a smaller motor in the back too?
     

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