Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

A post nobody asked for: How I'd handle the FSD problem (features, HW upgrades) for early adopters

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Here are two images from TMC from 2016. Tesla even specified the four cameras used for EAP in one of the early Design Studio texts.

eap-whichcameras-png.207112



screen-shot-2016-12-21-at-10-11-36-pm-png.207136
 
There was no piecemeal aspect of FSD like AP/EAP. In fact people assumed it was a completely separate code base, and that accounted for the demo being so good.

I don’t get your opinion on this, at all.

After all: Obviously FSD can happen piecemeal. Just like AP1 and EAP happened piecemeal, even though we got their full descriptions from the get-go. (Had Tesla stuck to 4 cameras only for non-FSD this piecemeal approach would have happened even sooner.)

It is the most simplest thing to come up with features that might come out piecemeal. Here is one novel thought of what a piecemeal step for FSD could mean:

- Adding support for intersection-taking
- Adding support for roundabout exit-taking
- Adding support for stop sign stopping
- Adding support for traffic light stopping

Any one of those would be very much be a piecemeal approach towards FSD. Far from any Level 3-5 activity, but still features clearly beyond EAP.

FSD is not a steak, as you put it. It is a software option pack sold by a company that tends to approach software step by step instead of completed deliverables. Obviously they can — and almost everyone still today expects they will — bring it to fruition piece by piece. It was hardly unreasonable to expect this in 2016, especially when Tesla set a hard limit of 4 cameras only for EAP and FSD needed for 8.

I stand by my opinion that lots of us bought FSD in 2016 based on this belief that it would bring us some above-EAP features soon. Elon confirmed this in January 2017 by stating FSD differentiating features would come in 3-6 months. Now, I agree Tesla sold us a fake and failed in ”fake it until they make it” so they failed to deliver that.
 
Last edited:
If you weren't around in 2016 Tesla's marketing clearly made me believe that EAP and FSD were just a software update away. I would have no problem with purchasing AP1 MS at that time and infact if it wasn't for their ridiculous used car sale services I would have been driving AP1. At one point I was standing right in front of the AP1 MS I was looking to purchase :( but no I can't look at it or take ride. So this is not just about $3000 for FSD but a LOT more.
My worst fear is Tesla will completely ignore AP2 as time goes by and MY and Truck is released. And't yes I don't give a cheese eater's booty that Tesla will go bankrupt if they make whole AP2 customers.
 
If you weren't around in 2016 Tesla's marketing clearly made me believe that EAP and FSD were just a software update away. I would have no problem with purchasing AP1 MS at that time and infact if it wasn't for their ridiculous used car sale services I would have been driving AP1. At one point I was standing right in front of the AP1 MS I was looking to purchase :( but no I can't look at it or take ride. So this is not just about $3000 for FSD but a LOT more.
My worst fear is Tesla will completely ignore AP2 as time goes by and MY and Truck is released. And't yes I don't give a cheese eater's booty that Tesla will go bankrupt if they make whole AP2 customers.

Then a class action lawsuit is in order. They did it when AP2 was not up to par with AP1, and won. This is an even more serious case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TM34M and am_dmd
I don’t get your opinion on this, at all.

After all: Obviously FSD can happen piecemeal. Just like AP1 and EAP happened piecemeal, even though we got their full descriptions from the get-go. (Had Tesla stuck to 4 cameras only for non-FSD this piecemeal approach would have happened even sooner.)

It is the most simplest thing to come up with features that might come out piecemeal. Here is one novel thought of what a piecemeal step for FSD could mean:

- Adding support for intersection-taking
- Adding support for roundabout exit-taking
- Adding support for stop sign stopping
- Adding support for traffic light stopping

Any one of those would be very much be a piecemeal approach towards FSD. Far from any Level 3-5 activity, but still features clearly beyond EAP.

FSD is not a steak, as you put it. It is a software option pack sold by a company that tends to approach software step by step instead of completed deliverables. Obviously they can — and almost everyone still today expects they will — bring it to fruition piece by piece. It was hardly unreasonable to expect this in 2016, especially when Tesla set a hard limit of 4 cameras only for EAP and FSD needed for 8.

I stand by my opinion that lots of us bought FSD in 2016 based on this belief that it would bring us some above-EAP features soon. Elon confirmed this in January 2017 by stating FSD differentiating features would come in 3-6 months. Now, I agree Tesla sold us a fake and failed in ”fake it until they make it” so they failed to deliver that.

It's not an opinion; it's exactly what was on Tesla webpage.

Tesla didn't show a piecemeal approach to FSD so the expectation was for FSD to be like a switch you turn on. We got the full description so the expectation was for the full thing.

You seem to think people were expecting a piecemeal approach, and that is probably true in the sense of what they were expecting. But, what piecemeal approach would they have been happy with? A piece meal approach like you described which doesn't give them FSD at all? Or a piecemeal approach of limited L3 (like what Audi is or was doing with the A8 in Germany) where it can grow from there. The FSD means full SELF driving. It means the car has to take responsibility for at least some of it or it's not FSD.

Teslas position is really bad because they promised FSD in a way that made it appear like it was just validation away from working. But, clearly they hadn't even started on it.

We both stand by the opinion that Tesla absolutely has to do something to resolve their failure to deliver even partial FSD to AP2 owners.

It's not about how we got arrived at this spot, but it's about what Tesla should do to resolve it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: emmz0r
It's not an opinion; it's exactly what was on Tesla webpage.

Why did EAP come piecemeal when it was also presented as the full thing? You just said EAP would be natural as piecemeal, but FSD for some reason isn’t. Even though Elon Musk himself said FSD differentiating features would come by summer 2017 and they both were presented as one big blob on the Design Studio...

Ironically people did expect EAP to come as one update because of the text. For FSD, I distinctly recall a wide sentiment that it would happen more like AP1, step by step because it must be farther into the future than EAP, which we expected would be right around the corner because it simply built on AP1... Little did we know how faked Tesla’s NN ”prowess” actually was at that stage. :)
eap-whichcameras-png.207112


As for what people would have been happy with...

I think a lot of people would have been happy with significant new features for FSD pack owners appearing a couple of times a year, like traffic sign recognition and reaction, park seek, intersection and roundabout taking, camera-based auto park and so forth. Piece by piece progress, just like AP1 had for a while, and like EAP has had. That is what I expected, I did not expect Level 5 software within the ownership of the car to be frank...

What I did not expect — and what I am not happy with — was three years of nothing for FSD.
 
Last edited:
I was told at the time I bought my MS AP2 car, if I was going to lease it don't buy FSD, I Never Lease, If I buy my car out right, wait to buy FSD, it may go on sale, and it did 2years later, I got it for 2000.00, I have EAP & FSD now, and my service center guys did tell they can upgrade HW2 to HW3, but that maybe just a computer upgrade, nothing more, I will just have to wait to see if my AP2 car will drive from parking lot, to parking lot, If it doesn't, I will just sell my car and hope to be able to my a Tesla that will.
 
Why did EAP come piecemeal when it was also presented as the full thing? You just said EAP would be natural as piecemeal, but FSD for some reason isn’t.

EAP is a collection of features, and not just one feature. So it can come feature at a time. What Tesla lied about is that it would have feature parity with AP1 at launch (or within a few months of it), but it clearly wasn't.

FSD by definition is anything above L2 driving. That doesn't mean it can't come with one capability (like limited speed L3), and then have that speed increased later on. That would work, and people would be happy with that.

Back in 2016 there wasn't even the notion that FSD would be L2 City NoA.

It wasn't until EAP and FSD were combined that FSD was watered down where it was going to a piecemeal introduction of features that makes FSD seem more like EAP+.

If Tesla said "Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs" on the FSD package coming in 6 months or something like that we would have immediately clued into the fact that it wasn't nearly as well baked as we thought. That it was going to be a slow piecemeal addition of supporting capabilities that should have already been there long before they even considered selling a FSD package.

FSD simply wasn't sold as a driver assistance package back then. It was sold as the real deal.

Now days it's framed as a driver assistance package that just needs a year or two of testing to prove itself enough to regulators for them to accept.

Hence why we have article after article in the media of self-driving experts freaked out about City NoA.
 
Last edited:
Even though Elon Musk himself said FSD differentiating features would come by summer 2017

That tweet still to this day seemed strange to me.

Elon was responding to a tweet from someone asking him when FSD features would notably depart from EAP ones.

It just seems like a weird question to ask. At the time we didn't know how they planned on introducing FSD. The Tesla webpage said nothing about it.

The question seemed rather vague. Like why not ask how, and in addition to when?

Then Elon answered it equally vague about how, and his typical pull it from his arse answer. Which he's done so many times that it has lost any meaning.
 
I think a lot of people would have been happy with significant new features for FSD pack owners appearing a couple of times a year, like traffic sign recognition and reaction, park seek, intersection and roundabout taking, camera-based auto park and so forth. Piece by piece progress, just like AP1 had for a while, and like EAP has had.

I think AP2 owners would have been happier if Tesla had been more proactive in taking care of them.

Priority for updates
Improved Map information for speed limits (a mechanism to update them using the fleet)
Better performing NoA (sure its an EAP package, but it would have felt closer to FSD)
Automatic refund for taking too long on EAP features, and not one as the result a lawsuit.
A hardware upgrade moving the driver engagement system from the steering wheel torque sensor to a camera based system like what Cadillac uses. So it would allow for true hands free AP experience, and only FSD would have gotten this.
A letter telling them that due to the long development time they could opt to get a FSD refund, or opt to have free FSD on their next Tesla, or opt to wait for the HW3 upgrade where it clearly stated when it will start. So it was designed to let them select what worked the best for their situation.

The problem with FSD is it simply required more computing power than what was in HW/HW2.5 so things like traffic sign recognition wasn't possible either for EAP or FSD.

It was clear to Tesla very early on with AP2 that it wasn't going to be enough. As soon as they started development of HW3 they should have started a damage mitigation system for dealing with angry AP2 owners who were going to left with zero FSD capabilities as all their resources were consumed doing other stuff.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pilotSteve
@S4WRXTTCS

I agree FSD was sold as the real deal. It was part of the deception of course.

But given Tesla’s history, how they made their case back in 2016 at launch, the fact that they advertised FSD enabling 8 active cameras and Elon’s tweet from January, the reasonable expectation was features would come bit by bit for FSD as well. Basically anything that required above those four cameras Tesla specified as EAP (two redundant forward, side markers) and the EAP features would require the FSD package. (Or so we thought then, they of course went back on the 4 vs. 8 cameras part and now seem to even include Park Seek in EAP if Elon’s tweets are accurate.)

Had there been no mention of 4 vs. 8 active cameras and no Elon tweet, and no subsequent hints that FSD pack indeed is going to come out bit by bit, I might even agree with you. And I certainly agree Tesla tried to sell us a Level 5 dream back in 2016 to deflect from their unexpectedly early split from MobilEye. In a way FSD was definitely sold as a fake. But I would say it has always been a minority interpretation that this would somehow mean FSD only comes when it is Level 5 sleep in your car robotaxi. My opinion is most expected it to come out as Level 2 first, just my hunch.

The 4 vs. 8 active cameras still was the biggest thing in my book. Because EAP was so well defined and limited, and it was clear Tesla would be going beyond that with the new sensor suite, it was definitely a common interpretation that buying the FSD option was the way to be part of that progress...

As for whatever we disagee, I think it is of course okay to agree to disagree. :)
 
Last edited:
Then Elon answered it equally vague about how, and his typical pull it from his arse answer. Which he's done so many times that it has lost any meaning.

It is true Elon’s tweets are not trustworthy, but we did not know this as well back in January 2017. The AP2 debacle certainly has been eyeopening.

Not that Tesla’s history doesn’t have episodes similar to this, but there seemed to be more reason to believe Musk back then. Now it is all just one continuous jokefest. :)
 
Had there been no mention of 4 vs. 8 active cameras and no Elon tweet, and no subsequent hints that FSD pack indeed is going to come out bit by bit, I might even agree with you. And I certainly agree Tesla tried to sell us a Level 5 dream back in 2016 to deflect from their unexpectedly early split from MobilEye. In a way FSD was definitely sold as a fake. But I would say it has always been a minority interpretation that this would somehow mean FSD only comes when it is Level 5 sleep in your car robotaxi. My opinion is most expected it to come out as Level 2 first, just my hunch.

I see the 4 versus 8 camera as immaterial, and Elons tweet could have meant anything. Like now we know the first differentiating feature of HW3 is cone detection and visualization.

I don't think the majority of people seriously thought it would be Level 5 out of the gate. But, we expected updates and information on how FSD was progressing. We expected evidence of miles driven by Tesla vehicles with safety drivers in California, but we didn't get any of that.

I expected the first FSD feature to be speed limited L3 as that's exactly what the Audi A8 was gunning for. I figured Tesla would try to stay competitive since we've known since the diesel gate settlement that VW/Audi/Porsche was going to be the only relevant competitor to Tesla within the next 5 years (from that time). .

I not only didn't expect Tesla to make their owners safety drivers, but I also didn't expect regulatory agencies around the world to even allow it.

The EU will not allow it for sure.

The US does appear like they will so it's going to be an interesting 6-12 months when Tesla introduces City NoA to the North American market.

As to disagreeing. I think its important to disagree. History isn't written by one story teller.
 
Considering that true FSD will only be possible on the AP3 computer, Tesla will definitely need to (and I am confident will) upgrade ALL FSD buyers to AP3.

Have you tried to schedule your upgrade yet? With the last SW update it looks like the FSD computer now has functionality surfacing specific to it and according to Andrej's video you posted they are now targeting all of the NN's to the FSD chip only. 9:30 mark.
 
Have you tried to schedule your upgrade yet? With the last SW update it looks like the FSD computer now has functionality surfacing specific to it and according to Andrej's video you posted they are now targeting all of the NN's to the FSD chip only. 9:30 mark.

No, I have not tried to schedule my upgrade yet. I am sure I will get the upgrade at some point. I am trying to be patient and not bug the SC about it. But if I don't get the FSD computer upgrade by January, I will definitely put in a service request for it.

But you are making my point. yes, we are seeing divergence now between AP2 and AP3 features and Tesla is focusing almost exclusively on the FSD computer now. So it is more clear to me that future FSD features will only be available on the FSD computer. Which is why I said that Tesla needs to upgrade ALL FSD buyers to the FSD computer so that they can get what they paid for. The upgrades may not be happening just yet but they need to happen relatively soon. I am still optimistic that the mass upgrades will happen at some point in the nect few months. We do know that Tesla hopes to release Feature Complete to Early Access next month. So I am thinking they might start the mass upgrades next month or early 2020 when Feature Complete is released to the wide fleet with AP3.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MorrisonHiker