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A Public Letter to Mr. Musk and Tesla For The Sake Of All Tesla Driver's Safety

ohmman

Upright Member
Global Moderator
Feb 13, 2014
10,423
19,318
North Bay, CA
I am also very, very aware of the vast difference between what we rationally decide we should do if some emergency happens in the future, and what we're able to actually do once the emergency happens.
I once had a surprise birthday party thrown for me. My wife and I came home late at night, and I heard a shuffle in the house. I'd thought many times before this about what I'd do if there were an intruder - and it was always quite heroic. So when faced with the actual scenario where I thought there was an intruder, and suddenly people jumped out from hiding, what did I do?

I screamed and threw my hands up in the air.

So now I know how it would really go down.
 

Electroman

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
6,517
7,850
TX
Having said that, AP is not a mature product and if you are using it please be vigilant.

Let me fix that for you.

AP is a highly mature product for the conditions it's supposed to be used and how it should be used.

If you end up using it construction zones with cones, back roads with two way traffic and roads with no clear painted lines - that is your problem.

My Honda Accord is unable to do 3.1s 0 to 60 doesn't mean Accord is poor implementation of a sedan.
 
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X Fan

Active Member
Supporting Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,466
6,325
Naples, FL & Cary, NC
Let me fix that for you.

AP is a highly mature product for the conditions it's supposed to be used and how it should be used.

If you end up using it construction zones with cones, back roads with two way traffic and roads with no clear painted lines - that is your problem.

My Honda Accord is unable to do 3.1s 0 to 60 doesn't mean Accord is poor implementation of a sedan.

Hey, read these words closely and relook at my post.

My issue was on a designated highway.

Smh at your arrogance.

And btw, I've driven over 7500 miles using AP and venture to say have more experience in using product then you ( and that wasn't my first issue. I've had several issues on i95 in the Carolinas and Georgia ).
 
Your argument would be sounder if it was objective without the spin.

Exactly. A lie is intentional. The driver needs to be given some extra room for possible translation errors, as well as the fact that his perception may have been a bit off due to the crash.

If I were the driver, I would be asking Tesla to give me the full log files. It's not fair for Tesla to have access to the log files, choosing what to make public. For example, it may be true that AP caused the car to veer to the right, the driver immediately moved the steering wheel the opposite direction and stepped on the brakes. Without the logs, nobody knows for sure.
 
The logs are objective. His statements are inconsistent with the logs. He has zero credibility. It couldn't be more obvious.

The logs are not completely objective: what we have seen are statements Tesla has chosen to make from the data extracted from the log files, which hopefully provide an accurate portrayal of what happened, but Tesla would benefit from downplaying anything potentially negative about AP. And without going into a full analysis, I am not seeing obvious cases of statements from the driver that are inconsistent with the log files. The driver's basic premise is that he AP caused the car to veer right, and Tesla did not clearly address that. Why?
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,834
6,775
Exactly. A lie is intentional. The driver needs to be given some extra room for possible translation errors, as well as the fact that his perception may have been a bit off due to the crash.

If I were the driver, I would be asking Tesla to give me the full log files. It's not fair for Tesla to have access to the log files, choosing what to make public. For example, it may be true that AP caused the car to veer to the right, the driver immediately moved the steering wheel the opposite direction and stepped on the brakes. Without the logs, nobody knows for sure.

Read Pang's statement. Then read Tesla's report of the logs. This isn't a translation issue. And it isn't that his perception is a bit off. He is lying.

And be clear: Tesla didn't choose to make this public. He did. It is perfectly fair for Tesla to publicly state the facts as they know them to rebut his public statements that are not true or at best misleading.
 
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bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,834
6,775
The driver's basic premise is that he AP caused the car to veer right, and Tesla did not clearly address that. Why?

They did somewhat: "No steering torque was then detected until Autosteer was disabled with an abrupt steering action. Immediately following detection of the first impact, adaptive cruise control was also disabled, . . . "

But I agree that it would have been better if Tesla stated. "Autosteer was proceeding straight, or nearly so, with no abrupt steering changes, until Autosteer was disabled with an abrupt steering action to the right. And then 1 second later a detection of an impact."

Presumably the manual steering action that turned off autosteer was an abrupt steering action to the right -- into the barriers. He drove himself into the barriers. If it was a manual steering action to the left, then he wouldn't have hit the barriers on the right.
 

Az_Rael

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,673
8,973
Palmdale, CA
Presumably the manual steering action that turned off autosteer was an abrupt steering action to the right -- into the barriers. He drove himself into the barriers. If it was a manual steering action to the left, then he wouldn't have hit the barriers on the right.

So you are making the argument he manually jerked the wheel to cause the accident?

What if autopilot drifted to the right in the lane over the markings, the right tire went off the pavement at 55-60mph pulling the car further off the road abruptly and he grabbed the wheel to jerk it left but not in time to miss the first guard post? I can totally see that scenario happening as well.

And Tesla did not clarify, so we don't know either way.
 
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Read Pang's statement. Then read Tesla's report of the logs. This isn't a translation issue. And it isn't that his perception is a bit off. He is lying.

And be clear: Tesla didn't choose to make this public. He did. It is perfectly fair for Tesla to publicly state the facts as they know them to rebut his public statements that are not true or at best misleading.

I did read both, several times. And I don't recall any of your posts pointing out anything specific that you felt was a lie.

I have no problem with Tesla making some of the details public, for exactly the reason you state.
 

Naonak

Member
Dec 22, 2015
798
1,279
Kansas
That's fine, so there's a dip after the unpaved section and I'm wondering if that and the loss of road markings together caused AP to get confused. Some others have said that uneven roads cause AP to act strangely.

Do you have air suspension?
Yep, Mr. T is fully loaded. Only thing he doesn't have is dual chargers and 3rd row seating. I know no one has asked, but I have driven over 10k miles on AP without incident.
 
I'm not sure what your definition of "collision" is
Something that would slow the vehicle significantly. If this was really a collision why isn't everyone up-in-arms about Automatic Collision Avoidance not activating and avoiding it? And, again, no air bag deployment.
That's funny. So hitting something isn't enough for it to be a collision in your mind. How would you feel if your insurance company used that logic: "Naw - you didn't have a collision... you just hit a few posts that took off your front right wheel! It's nothing! We don't need to pay for little things like that!"

I'm not sure why you think people aren't up in arms that automatic collision avoidance didn't work. This is now the fourth incident I've seen reported on this forum where that system failed to stop a Tesla from hitting something. I already told my wife not to ever expect that to work, whether or not AutoSteer and Traffic-Aware Cruise Control are on. It doesn't even come close to working as well as the collision avoidance system I had in my 2011 Infiniti M56.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,834
6,775
So you are making the argument he manually jerked the wheel to cause the accident?

What if autopilot drifted to the right in the lane over the markings, the right tire went off the pavement at 55-60mph pulling the car further off the road abruptly and he grabbed the wheel to jerk it left but not in time to miss the first guard post? I can totally see that scenario happening as well.

And Tesla did not clarify, so we don't know either way.

Fact from Tesla log: There was an abrupt manual steering input prior to the detected collisions.

Probable fact from Pang: he hit 12 stakes. One after the other .

If there was an abrupt steering input it was to the left he wouldnt have hit, and then kept hitting, the posts with the right side of his car.

And the other guy with Infiniti: point and drive your infinity under the side of a semi, or at wooden posts and see if your 2011 Infiniti stops.

The biggest problem Tesla has is that the avg iqs of their new customers is decreasing rapidly and they will have to adjust for that.
 

Az_Rael

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,673
8,973
Palmdale, CA
Fact from Tesla log: There was an abrupt manual steering input prior to the detected collisions.

Ah, but how far in advance of the detected collisions was the manual steering input? That makes a big difference, and Tesla does not state. Was it 1 second? Or was it 1/10th of a second? Those are two entirely different scenarios.

And the reason he may have continued to hit posts even after applying manual steering force to the left was his wheel was removed/damaged in the initial collision preventing him from gaining full steering control to pull back onto the road.

So, we don't know as many facts from the logs as we think we do. My scenario is just as likely as yours at this point.
 

Drivin

Member
Feb 7, 2016
957
786
CA
Fact from Tesla log: There was an abrupt manual steering input prior to the detected collisions.

.
i think what you mean to write was:

"Fact that Tesla made a claim that the log said there was an abrupt..."

Or have what the Tesla logs stated been independently verified?

Remember, car companies have made many claims based on their "analysis" dating back to the Corvair and earlier.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,329
6,490
I did read both, several times. And I don't recall any of your posts pointing out anything specific that you felt was a lie.

I have no problem with Tesla making some of the details public, for exactly the reason you state.
Some clear things that stuck out as inconsistent:
1) Mr. Pang said Tesla never contacted him to ask about the accident. Tesla says they contacted him the morning after the accident through a translator to check if he was safe and also the next day his wife through a Mandarin speaking employee. This one stuck out to me as either Mr. Pang or Tesla clearly lying.
2) Mr. Pang said there were no warnings from the system prior to impact (although to the police he left an excuse that he didn't understand English in regards to warnings). The logs say there were.
2) Mr. Pang/his friend's account said Autopilot was active through crashing all the posts. The logs said autosteer was disabled before the crash and TACC disabled after the crash.
 
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bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,834
6,775
i think what you mean to write was:

"Fact that Tesla made a claim that the log said there was an abrupt..."

Or have what the Tesla logs stated been independently verified?

Remember, car companies have made many claims based on their "analysis" dating back to the Corvair and earlier.
I think what you meant to write was:

"Fact that it is reasonable to assume that their statements about the logs, which are easily going to be verified by authorities, can be considered well vetted and verifiable except by those who wear tin hats".
 

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