I see the direction you're trying to take my comments to, and I will not be following you there because it's a silly strawman argument. Reaction time is the same in both cases, right? The only additional time is the time it takes to move my hands from my lap to the steering wheel. Let's give it 1/10s as OP said = 8 feet traveled. If that's enough to kill someone, you shouldn't have been using AP in that particular circumstance and should have been driving the car yourself. I stand by my comment and my comment is valid:
If you consider an undivided mountain road, at night, to be "good" conditions for autopilot, what do you consider to be bad conditions?
I am not sure if i fully agree with Tesla statement specially this line: "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel. He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." If the road conditions became increasingly uncertain why didnt AP go into step 3 directly (slow down, flash lights and high beep) to alert the driver to take full control ? Why didnt the car apply brakes automatically when collided with the first beam ? The statement doesnt say AP was off when the crash happened. Does that mean if driver doesnt put his hands on the wheel AP can crash ? If the car veered to the right to hit the wooden posts then AP was in control at that time and even if driver had his hands on the wheel there is very minimal chance he would have avoided the crash if AP pulled the car to right towards the posts. I think most of us know what AP can do when driving in normal conditions but what we dont know if how it reacts in increasingly uncertain (for humans panic situation) situations.
Yes, of course. We can only speculate on this one. It disengages as soon as you yank the steering wheel. So it doesn't act in human panic situations. This can open a whole other can of worms, but I'm sure someone will bring up that airplane that crashed when the pilot tried to override autopilot, but didn't do it correctly.
Why would you take your hands off the wheel when driving 60MPH 3-4 feet away from a hard barrier? I will admit that I let the car drive hands-off in situations where I'm comfortable with it and confident that it will work. But any time the margin for error is small, I hold the wheel precisely so that I can immediately correct the car when it does something stupid. I can't understand why you'd trust it hands-off with so little room for error. If you had experience with the system, you'd know it's not perfect. If you didn't, then you shouldn't be trusting it at all until you do!
AP jobs is to maintain the car in lane and not crash, just because driver didnt put hands on wheel it shouldn't crash. It should get disabled if the AP doesnt like driver behavior or road conditions. Sorry i dont agree...
Would you rather AP get disabled and the driver has a 100% probability of crashing? Or AP alerts the driver and tried to continue driving, having only an <insert statistic less than 100%> probability of crashing? You asked "AP can crash", not "AP will crash".
I think the AC only stays on until you close your door(s). So putting it in park would not have that effect unless the person closed the door too.
We can't really know the facts of this case. Tesla logs only go so far into understanding what happened, and the account from the driver should be treated cautiously though not dismissed outright. That said, after driving mine for a week & very regularly but also carefully using Autopilot, I've come to understand its limitations as compared to my expectations. It's a nice assist, but I can't trust it very far, and so I don't. I take responsibility & stay alert. Just today on a short drive at lunch, I confirmed that it can't handle traffic circles (tried to take me through the middle island), and will sometimes follow another vehicle into a turn lane instead of continuing straight ahead. I don't think any Tesla driver should assume it can ever be totally trusted, even on a road they've used it many times previously. Always keep ready to take control, as Tesla says.
I'm pretty sure you all recognized it wasn't an "engine" he was talking about and that English was not his primary language.
Looking at the picture above, the road ends just past the white line on the right. In my experience, in a left turn, AP could easily stray out of the line enough to fall off of the asphalt. Once that happened I'm sure AP wouldn't be willing to put enough steering input to get back onto the road. I was on a road similar to this recently and I wasn't even willing to try AP even with my hands on the wheel. It *will* go over the line once in a while and if there isn't a good shoulder then you are asking for trouble. Additionally, if the airbags didn't go off, how would AP know there had been a collision? I'm not sure it could know that. It probably isn't that easy to figure out through sensors alone. Finally, even though I do think it is possible that AP ran off the road due to the lack of an asphalt shoulder, and I think it is possible it could keep driving after hitting the rail, I'm not clear on some of the other details. How did the driver use brakes to stop the car without turning off AP? How could he let go of the brake and get out of the cars with the motors spinning but the car not moving? How did he get out without it going into park? My guess is he was misunderstanding the A/C fans as the motor. When he got out they stayed on, but then perhaps he put it into park (probably already was in park) and then shut the door and it turned off? Weather has been kind of hot, possibly even in Montana. Or it is possible the vehicle was behaving incorrectly due to damage from the incident.
Well you got the first part correct. AP's job is to maintain the lane, the driver is responsible for avoiding a crash...at most AP (AEB) is responsible for mitigating a crash...as Tesla's literature indicates. Again, people need to stop removing personal responsibility when using AP...Tesla has gone to great lengths to promote the idea that the driver is always in control...heed or don't us the system.
Let's try to avoid hyperbole here. The car didn't "collide with" the beams -- it grazed them. Had it "collided with" them no doubt various other collision-related safety mechanisms (e.g., air bags) would have engaged. "Actually running into things" detection seems like solving the wrong problem here, assuming the car has already made all of the "usual" efforts to inform the driver that AP was in trouble. Does anyone really think the driver wasn't aware that a) he'd (not the car -- he) run into something and b) it was time to take over driving the car? How much automated compensation for zoned-out drivers are we looking for here? It would be interesting to hear from Tesla, based on the logs, exactly when -- if at all -- the car eventually disengaged AP on its own, since apparently despite all of the drama here that never occurred to the driver.
I'm pretty sure you all recognized it wasn't a "serious comment" he was talking about and that English was his primary language
There wheels are direct drive through a single gear ratio transmission. There is no way for the motors to be running without the wheels turning. It isn't like a car that the engine can be revving and the car is in park or neutral.
True, but that can't explain how one could think the motor was spinning fast while the wheels were stationary. That thinking points to some serious misunderstanding of what happened in this incident; who know what other kinds of misinterpretation there was?
I just drove 1800 miles (L.A. to Houston), almost 100% AP, it swerved pretty severely (left or right) probably 5-6 times for no visual reasons. I usually drive hands free and it can be startling for sure, but, like others, it's just growing pains and I'm sure these hiccups will be worked out. Like Max said, it doesn't take much time to grab the wheel, it did cross the lines a couple of times, but never more than probably 6 inches before I'm able to correct it. I'm curious about what extent it will swerve (a couple of feet or couple of lanes), but my reflexes always grab the wheel. But, in any of these cases I wouldn't consider Tesla be liable (either legal or morally). I understand what beta means and I'm 100% fine with that.
I tested this yesterday because I as curious too (I was on a straight stretch of divided freeway with no cars visible around me). This is how the warnings progressed: Message to put hands on the wheel in the IC Message to put hands on the wheel in the IC plus double beep with music muted during the beep Message to put hands on the wheel in the IC plus triple beep and music muted (did not resume after the beep) Message to put hands on the wheel to maintain speed in the IC plus continuous beeping At that point, since I was on a public road, I put my hands on the wheel. Two thoughts: The progression was faster than I expected. I did not time it, but it seemed like maybe 30 sec from step 2 to step 4 I am not sure how anyone could ignore the continuous beeping--it is both loud and irritating
I don't think it's funny keeps point out there is no engine, instead Tesla uses a motor. You know what he means and how he calls it is not the main point of the story. After I read Tesla and Casteven's side of the story, I think both sides are at fault, Casteven has more responsibility just because driver ultimately is responsible of the car, Tesla is close to no fault because AP is intent for highway driving, not local streets. Outside the court, Tesla lack of education on the limit of AP, all they tell the public is what the AP can do, with a fine print it's a beta version and you are 100% responsible to take control over your car at anytime. I hope Tesla can provide a list of AP's weak spots so owners can be more proactive during those situations.
Definitely agree with this. I occasionally experiment on undivided roads with autopilot, knowing that it has limitations. The roads I've tried it on have been flat and straight and I've had my hands on the wheel tighter than I do without autopilot. I also will only attempt if there is basically no traffic. I haven't had a problem so far, but I definitely can see why the described scenario would be a bad idea based on a few previous observations. - There seems to be some kind of misconception that AP can read all signs and/or knows all terrain. If you've ever engaged AP while on an off-ramp or interchange, you'll find that it rarely (if ever) slows for curves. - AP is restricted to 50mph max on those roads from what I can tell, but that seems too fast for the road pictured. Again, AP seems to keep lanes by looking ahead at the lane markings/other cars NOT by reading road GPS data and road signs. It is not great at "anticipating" what the road will do. Thus, if there is a crest and no leading car to key in on, it's going to be completely lost.