mikeash
Active Member
You seem to have missed the part where I said "on a narrow, twisty road with a barrier at the edge." And by "missed" I'm pretty sure I mean "deliberately ignored."
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Changed a quote from the original OP to make a little more sense : "For the sake of the safety of all Tesla drivers and passengers, and all other people sharing the road, Mr. Musk I should stand up as a man, face up the challenge to thoroughly investigate the cause of the accident, and take responsibility for the mistakes of Tesla produce I MADE BY NOT USING THE PRODUCT PROPERLY."
HEIDELCEDRIC
Maximum Plaid Member
Anyone notice how his friends article is contradicting in some of what it says
My friend's model X crashed using AP yesterday
My friend's model X crashed using AP yesterday
CuriousG
Active Member
I found this comment on reddit by MuppetZoo so hopefully he won't mind I did a Melania Trump speech:
I actually live near this area, and the description of where it happened doesn't make a lot of sense - if it happened where he says it did, he was lost.
The driver claims he turned off on state route 2 in Whitehall coming from Seattle on the way to Yellowstone. Well, state route 55 would be the road from Whitehall through Madison County, through Ennis and on down to West Yellowstone. It's a gorgeous drive. I would by no means call it mountain driving - it's flat, has long straight stretches, and the lane markings are really good. After driving over Homestake Pass right before turning off in Whitehall, it's much easier. Now, I'd actually never drive that at night - the deer are TERRIBLE. He wouldn't know that though. However, at night it would make more sense to either turn off at Cardwell or even continue on to Bozeman and drive Hwy 191 down to West Yellowstone.
HOWEVER, his letter says he was on state route 2. That road completely backtracks through the mountains to Butte. It really is rather sketchy and I'd never dream of putting autopilot on for that road. You'd have to be pretty retarded to do that. Let me rephrase that, you'd have to be batshit insane, nucking futs to use autopilot on that road. It's full of blind corners, switchbacks, and gets pretty narrow. To make things more fun, anyone drinking and driving between Butte and Madison County drives that road to avoid the state police and traffic on the interstate. I suppose it's possible he was on state route 2 headed toward Cardwell, but that wouldn't really make sense either. More importantly, if he really, truly was on state route 2, he was lost. He certainly wasn't going the right way to West Yellowstone.
The bolding was his emphasis.
I actually live near this area, and the description of where it happened doesn't make a lot of sense - if it happened where he says it did, he was lost.
The driver claims he turned off on state route 2 in Whitehall coming from Seattle on the way to Yellowstone. Well, state route 55 would be the road from Whitehall through Madison County, through Ennis and on down to West Yellowstone. It's a gorgeous drive. I would by no means call it mountain driving - it's flat, has long straight stretches, and the lane markings are really good. After driving over Homestake Pass right before turning off in Whitehall, it's much easier. Now, I'd actually never drive that at night - the deer are TERRIBLE. He wouldn't know that though. However, at night it would make more sense to either turn off at Cardwell or even continue on to Bozeman and drive Hwy 191 down to West Yellowstone.
HOWEVER, his letter says he was on state route 2. That road completely backtracks through the mountains to Butte. It really is rather sketchy and I'd never dream of putting autopilot on for that road. You'd have to be pretty retarded to do that. Let me rephrase that, you'd have to be batshit insane, nucking futs to use autopilot on that road. It's full of blind corners, switchbacks, and gets pretty narrow. To make things more fun, anyone drinking and driving between Butte and Madison County drives that road to avoid the state police and traffic on the interstate. I suppose it's possible he was on state route 2 headed toward Cardwell, but that wouldn't really make sense either. More importantly, if he really, truly was on state route 2, he was lost. He certainly wasn't going the right way to West Yellowstone.
The bolding was his emphasis.
Lon12
Member
Where do you get that "auto piloting" means you can take your hands off the wheel? Doesn't matter what you are driving that has auto pilot (planes boats etc) if you are in close proximity to obstacles you better believe your hands are on the controls.
And yes. If you crashed your plane because your hands were not on the wheel... criminal maybe. Dead, probably.
I'm pretty sure it would have to say "autonomous" before you could safely take your hands off the controls.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
In UK we have had a Practical Theory test (for more than 20 years), as well as a driving test. There is a sample online test here (two parts, multiple-choice and hazard-perception [videos]) if you want to have a go
Free Theory Test
Free Hazard Perception Test
I got 84% on the Theory
Misread the question on a couple - oops! - and had no idea "What percentage of all emissions does road transport account for?", nor the amount of chest compression to give during first aid ...I think it a fair bet (but too old to know for sure ...) that the Theory Test includes coverage of things like [oil] warning lights on dashboard and tyre pressures
drtko147
Active Member
I have an older Model S without AP. I have driven loaners with AP. My feeling is that AP can't replace common sense and good defensive driving. If the car is warning you to put your hands on the wheel repeatedly and you chose to ignore the warnings, you should not be allowed to use AP. There should be programming to disable it. That way, you as a driver won't get into trouble. A big warning should come up that states that AP is no longer available in your car and that you will need to contact Tesla to have it reactivated. At that point, support will let you know that it was deactivated because you chose to ignore the warnings and that if you can't comply with the warnings, AP will be permanently disabled.
I also think that when you purchase the car with AP, you will need to sign an agreement that you understand the limitations of AP.
I also think that when you purchase the car with AP, you will need to sign an agreement that you understand the limitations of AP.
tinm
2020 Model S LR+ Owner
<kevlar>
I would not complain if DMVs begin requiring AP-specific driving tests, even for long-time drivers, whenever someone buys a car with AP in it. As in, they shouldn't be allowed to take delivery until they've done a test, administered by someone who has proper credentials to administer it (could be a lowly Tesla delivery specialist, whatever), passed it, and signed the certification and sent it in.
</kevlar>
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
I don't know, in this specific instance, an IQ test seems more appropriate.
tinm
2020 Model S LR+ Owner
TM Ownership
Member
Dear Mr. Pang,
We were sorry to hear about your accident, but we were very pleased to learn both you and your friend were ok when we spoke through your translator on the morning of the crash (July 9). On Monday immediately following the crash (July 11), we found a member of the Tesla team fluent in Mandarin and called to follow up. When we were able to make contact with your wife the following day, we expressed our concern and gathered more information regarding the incident. We have since made multiple attempts (one Wednesday, one Thursday, and one Friday) to reach you to discuss the incident, review detailed logs, and address any further concerns and have not received a call back.
As is our standard procedure with all incidents experienced in our vehicles, we have conducted a thorough investigation of the diagnostic log data transmitted by the vehicle. Given your stated preference to air your concerns in a public forum, we are happy to provide a brief analysis here and welcome a return call from you. From this data, we learned that after you engaged Autosteer, your hands were not detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes. This is contrary to the terms of use when first enabling the feature and the visual alert presented you every time Autosteer is activated. As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted you to put your hands on the wheel. No steering torque was then detected until Autosteer was disabled with an abrupt steering action. Immediately following detection of the first impact, adaptive cruise control was also disabled, the vehicle began to slow, and you applied the brake pedal.
Following the crash, and once the vehicle had come to rest, the passenger door was opened but the driver door remained closed and the key remained in the vehicle. Since the vehicle had been left in Drive with Creep Mode enabled, the motor continued to rotate. The diagnostic data shows that the driver door was later opened from the outside and the vehicle was shifted to park. We understand that at night following a collision the rotating motors may have been disconcerting, even though they were only powered by minimal levels of creep torque. We always seek to learn from customer concerns, and we are looking into this behavior to see if it can be improved. We are also continually studying means of better encouraging drivers to adhere to the terms of use for our driver assistance features.
We are still seeking to speak with you. Please contact Tesla service so that we can answer any further questions you may have.
Sincerely,
The Tesla team
We were sorry to hear about your accident, but we were very pleased to learn both you and your friend were ok when we spoke through your translator on the morning of the crash (July 9). On Monday immediately following the crash (July 11), we found a member of the Tesla team fluent in Mandarin and called to follow up. When we were able to make contact with your wife the following day, we expressed our concern and gathered more information regarding the incident. We have since made multiple attempts (one Wednesday, one Thursday, and one Friday) to reach you to discuss the incident, review detailed logs, and address any further concerns and have not received a call back.
As is our standard procedure with all incidents experienced in our vehicles, we have conducted a thorough investigation of the diagnostic log data transmitted by the vehicle. Given your stated preference to air your concerns in a public forum, we are happy to provide a brief analysis here and welcome a return call from you. From this data, we learned that after you engaged Autosteer, your hands were not detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes. This is contrary to the terms of use when first enabling the feature and the visual alert presented you every time Autosteer is activated. As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted you to put your hands on the wheel. No steering torque was then detected until Autosteer was disabled with an abrupt steering action. Immediately following detection of the first impact, adaptive cruise control was also disabled, the vehicle began to slow, and you applied the brake pedal.
Following the crash, and once the vehicle had come to rest, the passenger door was opened but the driver door remained closed and the key remained in the vehicle. Since the vehicle had been left in Drive with Creep Mode enabled, the motor continued to rotate. The diagnostic data shows that the driver door was later opened from the outside and the vehicle was shifted to park. We understand that at night following a collision the rotating motors may have been disconcerting, even though they were only powered by minimal levels of creep torque. We always seek to learn from customer concerns, and we are looking into this behavior to see if it can be improved. We are also continually studying means of better encouraging drivers to adhere to the terms of use for our driver assistance features.
We are still seeking to speak with you. Please contact Tesla service so that we can answer any further questions you may have.
Sincerely,
The Tesla team
That was your first mistake. The road you were on was not appropriate for Autopilot use. Perhaps you never got any instruction in AP use? Perhaps your lack of English speaking ability meant you did not understand the instruction you were given? Or perhaps you did not read the Model S owners manual, or did not understand the instructions on the center display? I don't know which is the case, but you definitely did not understand the correct use of AP
Tesla's statement about what your car's log files show belies your assertion. Here is how Tesla responded, quote:
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“This vehicle was being driven along an undivided mountain road shortly after midnight with autosteer enabled. The data suggests that the driver’s hands were not on the steering wheel, as no force was detected on the steering wheel for over 2 minutes after autosteer was engaged (even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel, will be detected). This is contrary to the terms of use that are agreed to when enabling the feature and the notification presented in the instrument cluster each time it is activated.
As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel. He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway.
Autosteer, which is enabled via the Driver Assistance tab under Settings, is best suited either for highways with a center divider or any road while in slow-moving traffic. We specifically advise against its use at high speeds on undivided roads.
That said, provided the driver remains alert, it will still be safer than a person driving unaided, as people are sometimes distracted or may become unable to operate the vehicle, due to falling sleep, fainting or experiencing a medical emergency. After either high lateral acceleration from a sharp corner is detected or there is no force on the steering wheel, the vehicle gradually reduces speed, stops and turns on the emergency lights.”
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Mr. Pang, your complaint against Tesla has no merit. You failed to understand how to properly operate the car you were driving.
Beeps/warnings occurred earlier. Previous posts suggested that driver did not understand alerts as he is not fluent in English.
His car is going 81feet/second. Assuming posts are 10ft apart, the car stopped in under 2 seconds. I think it shows that information here is incomplete and it's hard to make any sense of it.
It was likely one of the fans or AC compressor hitting something and making the ruckus.
If you read the letter from Tesla to him it says the logs show motors were running because creep mode was on.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The butt sensors should have prevented that, but perhaps the crash made them malfunction (or they had items in the seats). edit: I also note that the driver door was not opened until it was opened from the outside (only the passenger door was opened).
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Mr Pang you have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered in your X
While these warnings did appear.
And this road and wooden stakes,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
If you pardon, Mr. Pang will mend:
And, if he is an honest Pang
For he has no unearned luck
Now to 'scape the forum's tongue,
He will make amends ere long;
Else the Pang a liar call;
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered in your X
While these warnings did appear.
And this road and wooden stakes,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
If you pardon, Mr. Pang will mend:
And, if he is an honest Pang
For he has no unearned luck
Now to 'scape the forum's tongue,
He will make amends ere long;
Else the Pang a liar call;
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And the right front wheel is missing. Hard to see how he plowed through so many posts, especially if the car "veered suddenly to the right." Looking at the road, I suspect that with Autosteer off at the time, the car simply continued straight as the road curved, and Mr. Pang, by correcting, kept the trajectory parallel to the road, without a front wheel and with damaged rear wheel.
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