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A view from the other side..

Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
3,942
2,912
Bath, UK
This is more of a general comment really, not specific to the UK forum, so feel free to move if needs be.

I've got a Peugeot e-2008 GT on a subscription (Onto) at the moment, as a stop gap while another (non-Tesla) car is being repaired. It's a nice car, seems put together well, has some nice visual flair that I wish were on the Tesla like ambient lighting strips, etc. The auto headlights and auto wipers work flawlessly, as you'd expect from a car that uses tried-and-tested technology (sensors) to do it. The auto headlights in particular are better than I expected them to be - they turn off quickly upon seeing an oncoming car, or distant rear lights, or sufficient ambient light - something my Model 3 seems incapable of doing.

So far so good, right? Tesla had bettter watch out!

Unfortunately, from here things go downhill. I had the pleasure of trying to update the car over the weekend. The Peugeot app - which is pretty terrible - told me that there was a "touchscreen" and nav update available. I figured I would download this in the car, since the car can connect to wifi. Makes sense right? Nope, in the year 2021 I have to use a USB stick and download the updates to it. Peugeot supply an app so it's not entirely manual, but given both updates were 5 and 17GB respectively - it meant I had to leave it to download and remind myself to come back to get it. Oh yeah, I needed a USB stick with 22GB of space on it, which could only be used if it was formatted for that one purpose.

Armed with the USB key I traipsed out to the car in the cold, got in and plugged it in. I checked the instructions online (PDF) on how to update, which told me that I had to be in the car while it was updating, with the "ignition" on and doors closed. Don't want to wait while it updates? Tough. I figured it shouldn't take too long, I've got a fast USB stick, etc. 40 minutes later watching a progress bar move about 3 pixels every minute or so, it still hasn't finished. The car has spontaneously turned the ignition off itself during this time, for whatever reason, and is also now showing a red 12v battery icon. Should I be concerned about that? The update says that the ignition has to be in "ready" mode, but the car has taken it out of ready mode itself.. what do I do? Against my better judgement I pressed the ignition button again, knowing that it could mess up the firmware update, but fortunately the car just says "Ready" again and the 12v battery icon switches off. At this point I'm scared that the car is discharging the 12v because the auto lights are in dipped mode, the A/C is on, etc.. so I switch all of that off, while it's still updating.

All in all it must have taken a good 50 minutes to update the firmware on the car. That was the 5GB update. I haven't even dared do the 17GB map one, because the process for updating that is the same - i.e. sit in the car like a lemon while the car says "don't turn the ignition off!" but turns it off itself anyway.

The last Tesla update I had - as you all know - the car told me it had an update, I told it to update itself, it did and I went back to sleep.

I'm not even going to get into how useless the Peugeot app is. You can turn the climate off and on, and see the car charging, but that's it. It looks and feels like a first generation app from someone who has only just learnt how to create them. Oh, and did I mention that you have to follow a process of completing 20 trips in order to pair the car to the app?

How is it possible that companies still get these basics so wrong in 2021?
 

phil4

Member
Sep 8, 2020
381
224
UK
Our Honda E has a similar process for updating the Nav. You need a 32Gb USB stick (no bigger, no smaller), and you need to "mark" it first in the car, then download on your PC, then insert and wait while it updates.

The App is beyond hopeless too.

It's one area that those catching up with Tesla are really really lagging behind on, which is unsurprising since cars are their bread and butter... but software and apps aren't. This will be the area that takes the longest for them to catch up in my view.
 
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VanillaAir_UK

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2019
8,975
6,572
Surrey, UK
How is it possible that companies still get these basics so wrong in 2021?

Quite possibly because there are some pending new regulations to cover OTA which may well be causing some manufacturers to wait until their update method meets those regs. So sticking with making it more a dealer update maintains their status quo.

These regs may well catch Tesla out - it will depend how retrospective they are and whether can comply.

I think this is them but too many docs and updates to confirm with a quick overview.
 
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Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
3,942
2,912
Bath, UK
If you're allowed to have the windows open then just stick a sack of spuds on the driver's seat?
I guess I could do that. My point really was why should I have to sit there and babysit it, or even have to do anything "in person" at all? It's not like the car doesn't have internet connectivity.

I daren't even think how long a 17GB update would take if the 5GB one took nearly an hour.
 

pdk42

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
1,187
1,222
Leamington
Count yourself lucky! The ID3 my wife owns supposedly has OTA. But the first OTA (2.3) comes in two parts which together take over 4 hours to install. The first part temporarily diables various safety systems so you have to wait to receive an e mail and then respond accepting the conditions. Then you wait, and wait, and wait. Five weeks later we’re still waiting. Downloads only happen over 4G and the car only checks once a week. Fantastic design!
 
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HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
968
891
Manchester
When my wife's ID.3 had its first software 'update' VW had to have the car at the dealership to do it and in the end had it 2 weeks. We had a loan car meanwhile.

The VW app is laughable. It does nothing other than confirm the range (or what the range was a while ago - often it doesn't update between journeys). It offers remote heating/AC but doesn't work when you try to use it.
 
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Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
3,942
2,912
Bath, UK
Our Honda E has a similar process for updating the Nav. You need a 32Gb USB stick (no bigger, no smaller), and you need to "mark" it first in the car, then download on your PC, then insert and wait while it updates.

The App is beyond hopeless too.

It's one area that those catching up with Tesla are really really lagging behind on, which is unsurprising since cars are their bread and butter... but software and apps aren't. This will be the area that takes the longest for them to catch up in my view.
The thing is, I could forgive that stuff if we were living in a pre-App Store, pre-iPhone era, but we aren't, and haven't been for many years.

There's absolutely no reason these companies can't know about what peoples expectations are with technology now. People update their computers, phones, watches, TVs, etc seamlessly and without inconvenience - it is what it is expected - then you have a car, which nowadays is basically a computer on wheels, which has about the clunkiness user experience imaginable.

I was wondering whether it was just a Peugeot quirk, but it sounds as if it's endemic.
 
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HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
968
891
Manchester
People update their computers, phones, watches, TVs, etc seamlessly and without inconvenience - it is what it is expected - then you have a car, which nowadays is basically a computer on wheels, which has about the clunkiness user experience imaginable.
It feels to me that the traditional car manufacturers are still of a mindset that they have a combustion engine on wheels with a few electric bits stuck on.
 
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Durzel

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
3,942
2,912
Bath, UK
It feels to me that the traditional car manufacturers are still of a mindset that they have a combustion engine on wheels with a few electric bits stuck on.
Yup, that definitely seems like it's the logical conclusion. Software is something they have in the manufacturing & admin side of things, but customer-facing software is a complete mystery to them.

Some of the UI interfaces in the Peugeot are just alien. It's not like they're just different to what you expect, it's like they've gone out of their way to be contrarian or to do it in such a way where it's actually a challenge for the customer to try and figure out where you need to go to try and do something, or just to find out you can't.

Android and iOS are uniquely different but I would imagine tech-savvy people can transition between them fairly easily, as there will be conventions they both follow. I'm utterly lost operating the Peugeot UI a lot of the time.. icons that don't do what you think they should, or behave differently (without the icon changing) depending on what screen you're on. There is a cog icon and a "pages" icon, both of which handle settings at different times, sometimes for the specific screen you're on.. sometimes you have to do to the "system settings" to make changes to screens, etc.

Some people might not care about this stuff, particularly if the car is just a utilitarian thing, but once you've experienced cohesive user experiences you can't deal with this crap, or at least I can't.
 

HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
968
891
Manchester
Some of the UI interfaces in the Peugeot are just alien. It's not like they're just different to what you expect, it's like they've gone out of their way to be contrarian or to do it in such a way where it's actually a challenge for the customer to try and figure out where you need to go to try and do something, or just to find out you can't.
The UI in the VW is similarly confusing, to me at least. It has a definite feel that the different aspects of it were designed by teams each in their own silos, with no knowledge of what the other teams were up to. The resulting outputs were then stuck together in hope they had covered all the basis.

Some aspects of it are very good but most are overly complex/confusing or just don't make sense. It's like having Windows 95 with 'gestures' enabled.
 
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This is more of a general comment really, not specific to the UK forum, so feel free to move if needs be.

I've got a Peugeot e-2008 GT on a subscription (Onto) at the moment, as a stop gap while another (non-Tesla) car is being repaired. It's a nice car, seems put together well, has some nice visual flair that I wish were on the Tesla like ambient lighting strips, etc. The auto headlights and auto wipers work flawlessly, as you'd expect from a car that uses tried-and-tested technology (sensors) to do it. The auto headlights in particular are better than I expected them to be - they turn off quickly upon seeing an oncoming car, or distant rear lights, or sufficient ambient light - something my Model 3 seems incapable of doing.

So far so good, right? Tesla had bettter watch out!

Unfortunately, from here things go downhill. I had the pleasure of trying to update the car over the weekend. The Peugeot app - which is pretty terrible - told me that there was a "touchscreen" and nav update available. I figured I would download this in the car, since the car can connect to wifi. Makes sense right? Nope, in the year 2021 I have to use a USB stick and download the updates to it. Peugeot supply an app so it's not entirely manual, but given both updates were 5 and 17GB respectively - it meant I had to leave it to download and remind myself to come back to get it. Oh yeah, I needed a USB stick with 22GB of space on it, which could only be used if it was formatted for that one purpose.

Armed with the USB key I traipsed out to the car in the cold, got in and plugged it in. I checked the instructions online (PDF) on how to update, which told me that I had to be in the car while it was updating, with the "ignition" on and doors closed. Don't want to wait while it updates? Tough. I figured it shouldn't take too long, I've got a fast USB stick, etc. 40 minutes later watching a progress bar move about 3 pixels every minute or so, it still hasn't finished. The car has spontaneously turned the ignition off itself during this time, for whatever reason, and is also now showing a red 12v battery icon. Should I be concerned about that? The update says that the ignition has to be in "ready" mode, but the car has taken it out of ready mode itself.. what do I do? Against my better judgement I pressed the ignition button again, knowing that it could mess up the firmware update, but fortunately the car just says "Ready" again and the 12v battery icon switches off. At this point I'm scared that the car is discharging the 12v because the auto lights are in dipped mode, the A/C is on, etc.. so I switch all of that off, while it's still updating.

All in all it must have taken a good 50 minutes to update the firmware on the car. That was the 5GB update. I haven't even dared do the 17GB map one, because the process for updating that is the same - i.e. sit in the car like a lemon while the car says "don't turn the ignition off!" but turns it off itself anyway.

The last Tesla update I had - as you all know - the car told me it had an update, I told it to update itself, it did and I went back to sleep.

I'm not even going to get into how useless the Peugeot app is. You can turn the climate off and on, and see the car charging, but that's it. It looks and feels like a first generation app from someone who has only just learnt how to create them. Oh, and did I mention that you have to follow a process of completing 20 trips in order to pair the car to the app?

How is it possible that companies still get these basics so wrong in 2021?
My wife has an E2008, and software updating is not the easiest. You don’t have to sit in the drivers seat and wait, just attach the drivers seat belt and exit the car.
 
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phil4

Member
Sep 8, 2020
381
224
UK
The thing is, I could forgive that stuff if we were living in a pre-App Store, pre-iPhone era, but we aren't, and haven't been for many years.

There's absolutely no reason these companies can't know about what peoples expectations are with technology now. People update their computers, phones, watches, TVs, etc seamlessly and without inconvenience - it is what it is expected - then you have a car, which nowadays is basically a computer on wheels, which has about the clunkiness user experience imaginable.

I was wondering whether it was just a Peugeot quirk, but it sounds as if it's endemic.
I don't disagree, it could be many things... but the actual car, brakes, suspension, body shell, interior stuff they've been doing for decades so that's all fine. I suspect most manufacturers buy in their electronics from the likes of Bosch etc. I don't disagree that they should know what's required... but clearly achieving it is either too hard or too expensive with the people/departments they have.
 
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Fred2

Member
Sep 12, 2019
82
76
Uk
My wife has a leaf. Every single time you turn the car on it asks for to accept the terms of service related to connected services - I dont even know what those services are - you just have to tap ok before you can use the radio / satnav. Clearly some legal team got their way on that one. Never done a software update - i assume it would be a dealer visit.
 
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GRiLLA

Active Member
Jul 5, 2020
1,149
1,200
UK
The Leaf app is a cruel joke, takes 5 minutes to connect if you are lucky. Apparently it's expected that when it's a cold morning you'll have difficultly connecting at all due to the number of people all trying to turn their heating on. In 18 months it's had one update, that didn't change anything.
Having to confirm that you accept the risk using the screen every time you start the car is stupid also.
 
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GRiLLA

Active Member
Jul 5, 2020
1,149
1,200
UK
My wife has a leaf. Every single time you turn the car on it asks for to accept the terms of service related to connected services - I dont even know what those services are - you just have to tap ok before you can use the radio / satnav. Clearly some legal team got their way on that one. Never done a software update - i assume it would be a dealer visit.
Yeah, that.
 

Doudeau

Member
Jan 9, 2020
166
158
Twickenham
I'm not even going to get into how useless the Peugeot app is.
You should feel lucky as you’ve actually got it properly connecting to the car.

After owning my e208 for 13 months it will only connect to the car once in a while and just to update the mileage.

After seeking help from Peugeot and 2 of their dealers I’ve given up - as have quite a few people on the Peugeot forum I look at.

I do love the car tho - and it’s often my first choice for shorter journeys. Interestingly, WBAC will offer me £800 less than my purchase price - and I had braced myself for terrible depreciation.
 

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