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A yoke or a joke?

hcdavis3

HCD3
Mar 3, 2019
1,836
1,069
02571
My problem is with the horn. What if you need it immediately? I don’t think searching for the button on the yoke would work in a pedestrian incident.
 
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beatle

Active Member
Aug 31, 2019
1,045
510
Springfield, VA
My problem is with the horn. What if you need it immediately? I don’t think searching for the button on the yoke would work in a pedestrian incident.

Interestingly enough, when my Miata had its stock steering wheel, I preferred the horn buttons that I could can reach with my thumb.

aKTVhHq.jpg


As the car was small, people were always merging into my lane without seeing me, and I would blast them with my air horns. If I saw someone about to do something like that, I could cover the horn button with my thumb and then press the button. I could still steer with the horn blaring.

It's not without its drawbacks, of course. It's something to get used to, and if I needed to use the horn in a parking lot while I've got the wheel turned 90 degrees, I was a little screwed for a moment while I found the button.
 

46&2

Member
Dec 15, 2014
335
175
Switzerland
My problem is with the horn. What if you need it immediately?
Have you driven a refreshed Model S or Model X so you can say, 100% sure, that:

- The little button is NOT the pedestrian warning little bim-bim, and;
- The 'actual horn', aka loud thing, is engaged by hammering onto the center of the yoke?

(Not meant to be too personal, but that's about the normal criticism here: I don't know it, haven't asked for it, so it MUST suck!)
 

sonofagunn

Member
May 4, 2020
47
42
Florida
Variable steering might work, but what happens if you turn the wheel a bit at 20 mph and then accelerate to 60 mph while trying to turn at a constant radius? Is the wheel going to forcefully un-turn as you accelerate or will you start turning sharper and have to unwind it yourself? I'm guessing the latter. Might make donuts impossible though!
 
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Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,056
1,255
The Woodlands, TX
Decades ago, perhaps, I would have agreed, but in the current world of control software, heck no.

You cannot solve this issue with software only.

I

But the yoke (or wheel) also needs to give you the whole usable control range of the car. At very low speed this means the 1/2 turn from lock to lock yoke must reproduce the steering motion of the existing Model S, which is 2.05 (round it to two) turns from lock to lock. That leads to one quarter the leverage and four times the steering effort, which requires four times the power steering boost relative to the human input force to overcome at low speed. Power steering had better not fail, but then it’s not good if it fails in an ordinary heavy car too.

It would be extremely dangerous if the steering maintained the same very quick ratio at high speed, so the ratio needs to be variable: so variable that I’m not sure a mechanical system could do it. The steering likely has to be by wire..

It would definitely benefit from variable ratio. But it doesn't need to be "by wire". See the Audi system below.


Tesla hasn't mentioned it but variable ratio power steering already exists in modern vehicles, where slower speeds offer more assist and less so at-speed. I presume that this is the solution for the yoke, something I've mentioned in my own posts as well. I

What you mention is not variable ratio. It's variable assist. That's relatively common. Variable ratio is not (well, in talking about completely variable ratio; many racks have different mechanical ratios on the same rack, quicker in the center, slower at the edges. That's also called variable ratio, but it's "fixed" if that makes sense).

A truly variable ratio steering isn't all that common. And the implementations made to date haven't been great.

Variable steering might work, but what happens if you turn the wheel a bit at 20 mph and then accelerate to 60 mph while trying to turn at a constant radius? Is the wheel going to forcefully un-turn as you accelerate or will you start turning sharper and have to unwind it yourself? I'm guessing the latter. Might make donuts impossible though!

No, it doesn't really work like that. It's not ONLY tied to speed.

Here is a good description of the system Audi used to use.

Audi Technology Portal - Dynamic steering

I think it (which may have also gone to Lamborghini as well IIRC) as well as Infiniti are the only manufacturers using a truly variable system. Both of which have been almost universally panned for being artificial, weird, and just plain not good.
 
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Senza Benzina

Member
Feb 22, 2020
6
4
California
I’ve been driving around these last three days with my hands at 9 and 3. Not so easy. Yesterday I was maneuvering into a SC space and HORRORS, I spotted my left hand at 12 o’clock.
I sure hope I can work this out, I’ve already picked out the color for a new LR.
 

wooter

Nou ik heb niet te klagen over Tesla support
May 3, 2017
5,702
4,090
Belgium
  • Driving schools will correctly teach you that 10 and 3 hand positions allows for the most precise steering. Holding the yoke this way results in only half of your hands actually on the steering wheel which is tiring. It also means placing your hands over the touch sensitive buttons on the steering wheel, potentially inadvertently pressing all sorts of buttons.
  • Driving schools will correctly teach you not to put "hand over hand" while turning the steering wheel. This is completely unavoidable with a yoke.
10 and 3? In the old days it used to be 10 and 2, but that has been deprecated in favour of 9 and 3. 9 and 3 gives you the widest lever and therefore the most power to turn the wheel.


Hand over hand was a technique that was first recommended, then discouraged in favour of shuffling the wheel through your hands, and the last iteration of this technique is even to leave your hands at 9 to 3 under all times, except to manoever to park. I went through these techniques from the Peugeot Driving Academy (which was hand over hand, to end up in every corner with your arms at 9 to 3, even during full lock) to the BMW Training Experiences.

For reference, I did the Peugeot Driving Academy Pilotage training and refresh training, and the BMW Professional Driver Training.

Now, not all driving schools training new drivers will teach the latest and newest techniques, but they're obviously not in the business of giving advanced driver training.

Anyway, I'm not worried about the yoke. BMW used for the E39 already adaptive steering technology to adapt the steering output depending on speed, so I imagine Tesla can find a way to do the same in the S and X.

 
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ThomasD

Member
Nov 22, 2019
945
406
Breckenridge Co Ky
I can put my hand at the top of the wheel and using the palm of my hand turn the wheel all the way around without removing my hand from the steering wheel. You are not going to be able to do that with this yoke.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,056
1,255
The Woodlands, TX
Anyway, I'm not worried about the yoke. BMW used for the E39 already adaptive steering technology to adapt the steering output depending on speed, so I imagine Tesla can find a way to do the same in the S and X.


Ah yes, forgot about this horror show. They don't use this any more. Now they use rear steer to decrease turning radius at low speeds. Much more reliable.
 

Spacep0d

Active Member
Apr 20, 2019
1,000
1,158
Wildomar, CA
What you mention is not variable ratio. It's variable assist. That's relatively common. Variable ratio is not (well, in talking about completely variable ratio; many racks have different mechanical ratios on the same rack, quicker in the center, slower at the edges. That's also called variable ratio, but it's "fixed" if that makes sense).

A truly variable ratio steering isn't all that common. And the implementations made to date haven't been great.

Sure, variable ratio. Distinction noted. This is the only way I see the yoke working. Simple replacing a steering wheel with a cosmetic yoke wouldn't be ideal.
 
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TessP100D

Member
Jan 15, 2018
121
63
La Quinta, Ca
A round steering wheel is the safest most reliable type of wheel. Everybody knows that. Ever tried backing up a trailer? Your left hand goes on top of the steering wheel. Tesla should stick to fixing all the issues that ICE cars do very well, but Tesla can’t see, to catch up. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. (pun intended). Dam that’s funny. Anyways. Just stop it Tesla. Stop,it already.
 
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Xenoilphobe

Active Member
Jan 2, 2014
4,580
4,301
Fairfax County, Virginia
they actually don't teach that anymore due to airbags the 10 and 3 hold position results in loss of control for the steering wheel when air bag deploys. most of them suggests 4 and 8 now. so you can maintain steering wheel direction with air bags deployed. plus it's more comfortable with arm rests or knee as resting points for long term driving.

as long as the steering wheel is a closed loop which from the new shorten yolk steering attachment that it is just a slightly different shape it totally works with most people's driving style.
I was going to say something, but you know, its better to have 2 fists throw into your face when the airbag goes off and shatter both the radius and ulna bones and then drives them through your chest, 10 and 2 is about ten years ago....but whatever... hard to train old dogs new tricks. 8 and 4 or 9 and 3.

Better just to put your feet up on the dash...


 
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Tiger

Active Member
Oct 31, 2016
1,654
1,227
Estonia
Can someone explain to me how progressive / variable rate steering is going to work intuitively and safely in drifting or a similar emergency steering situation (track, sand, snow, ice, accident)? Is this variable steering why the red Plaid crashed on Nürburgring?
 

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