A yoke or a joke?

[JimLL]

Yeah, I've driven in the US. Highways are perfect for autopilot. If you need to turn more than 90º on the highway, you're doing something wrong.

Now on that we agree 1000%

 

[wooter]

This right here. ^^ Why does it always have to be Elon's way or the highway? Why is it a problem to offer options for any of these sorts of things? People who want a yoke- get it. People who don't, don't.

I don't know. Does Ford offer any other option except for the round steering wheel?

 

[bo3bdar]

Purely conjecture. If I were to react in an emergency situation, my hands would already be on the wheel, and RARELY does anyone have time to move them. Rarely also does the wheel need moving more than a few degrees, which a yoke can easily handle. As the person above pointed out, there was all kinds of worry about the Model 3's screen, "what will happen when I need to look down suddenly and there's no instrument cluster behind the wheel!!??? OH NO!", which didn't pan out.

Nearly everyone will be used to the yoke in a few minutes and never have a dollop of trouble with it. Instinct takes over easily when moving from a car with a big wheel, like on my S, to when I move to the three. BIG deal.

Now, if someone with a yoke were to write about all the problems he/she was having adapting, that might be interesting. But they don't.

Conjecture? I'm sorry, but what exactly was all the words you just typed right after conjecture? Of course we certainly should dismiss all potential issues, because nobody (or more accurately you) has experienced an issue with the yoke yet. I mean it has been on the road an entire 45 days, so we have a thorough sampling.

I am noticing a trend with the people pushing back on this. You all seem to think of yourselves as master drivers, and maybe you are. The problem with conjecture is that you are thinking only about yourselves and your own perceived proficiency behind the wheel.

And the FUD over the Model 3 screen is a false equivalency, and you know it is not remotely the same thing.

Exactly. And let's not forget human biases. People who buy a $130,000 car are not exactly going to the first to admit that the yoke was a mistake. It takes a strong personality to see past the money and the hype and have an actual informed opinion... and then waste time posting here. The lack of people reporting problems means nothing.

 

[bo3bdar]

I don't know. Does Ford offer any other option except for the round steering wheel?

Yet another false equivalency, but thanks for playing. If you can find a single post where a Ford driver wants a yoke and has been denied, then you've got an argument. Tesla currently has the luxury of a sellers market, selling everything they can produce. If or when things tighten up, it makes no sense to lose customers for something like this.


Ford actually did experiment in the past, but for some unknown reason this did not catch on:

 

[Wol747]

That's just bad practice. Slipping the wheel through your fingers = not knowing which direction the wheels are pointing at.

Look, we're not talking about fast driving here, but what we do every day. Cars' steering tends to self-centre, we all know how powerful our particular car does this and, especially when doing large turns say on roundabouts it's natural and safe. And the stalks stay in the same place so indicating before the turnoff is dead easy - no need to work out which hand has the buttons nearest and which button does what upside down.
I've absolutely no objection to someone who wants the look of a yoke to get one - why should I have? But I can see millions of people having incidents caused by them, and Tesla having to bring back the wheel if only to regain sales. I for one will not be buying another Tesla if all that's available is this yoke.
BTW I "drove" a yoke for 35 years and it works. Not for cars!

 

[wooter]

But I can see millions of people having incidents caused by them, and Tesla having to bring back the wheel if only to regain sales.

Tesla won't even sell millions of Model S and X, so your point is moot.

Now, if they would sell a million of Cybertrucks, yeah, in the unlikely scenario that everyone starts doing 90º turns on straight highways, you might have a point.

No, the yoke isn't an issue. It appears to be an issue for a large numbers of people with an opinion but no Model S or X, though.

 

[Hayseed_MS]

Exactly. And let's not forget human biases. People who buy a $130,000 car are not exactly going to the first to admit that the yoke was a mistake. It takes a strong personality to see past the money and the hype and have an actual informed opinion... and then waste time posting here. The lack of people reporting problems means nothing.

People on here cannot wait to crap on Tesla for every little thing wrong with the car. I think most would say the yoke sucks if it did suck. Time will tell if it was ultimately a dumb idea and becomes the Pinto of the steering world.

I have said before, in the weeks leading up to delivery I had doubts and if given the choice would probably have taken the round wheel. Now that I have over 2k mile I would not switch back. I have had emergency maneuvers and regular 8-pt turns - it is fine. I believe the biggest reason I assimilated so easy was that I NEVER drive above 9 and 3. I have always rested hands at 9/3 or below. So I do not miss that above - even when reversing or turning.

I had my wife drive it for a while on city/rural streets to get her take. She is definitely a creature of habit and drive a Jeep. She immediately became accustomed to the yoke. Said it was not difficult but was weird. Granted, she did not do anything really difficult in the steering department. She did have difficulty with the turn signals and not looking down for them - that will take her time. I do not miss the stalks but would like the buttons arranged differently.

Also, on the other hand, most people poopooing on the yoke have yet to drive it or give it the proverbial fair shake. They have passed judgement and will not budge.

Again, some will say I am an apologist or living in fantasy but if you have a boring life you are welcome to ride with me to see what I am saying is true to my situation.

 

[wooter]

My belief that it will work is based on

• good driving techniques are 9 to 3, and then you don't have an issue with a missing top half of the steering wheel
• because it's yoke shaped, and not round, you have a bulge bottom left and bottom right. That's the default spot to hold the wheel while relax on autopilot.

The yoke will turn out to be the logical in-between between a full fledged steering wheel and self-driving: practical, without being too cumbersome.

I've also been playing racing and sim trucking games during COVID lockdown, with indicator buttons on the steering wheel. I wish I had indicator buttons on my car's steering wheel, which I can reach without needing my left hand on the steering wheel.

 

[mark95476]

It's exactly the same thing--a nothingburger.

Seemingly infinite amount of whining in anonymous online forums that will eventually evaporate. M3 owners got used to it really quickly. MY owners never had a problem and wonder why there's so much clutter in non-Teslas.

And the FUD over the Model 3 screen is a false equivalency, and you know it is not remotely the same thing.

It's a car.

Some have a clutch and a manual shifter. Others have paddle shifters. Some have auto transmission. Some have no transmission. I'm an average driver and I never had a problem with any of these, though I wholly prefer no transmission since getting my Tesla.

So your rebuttal is an FIA world champion?

 

[wooter]

Some have a clutch and a manual shifter. Others have paddle shifters

My previous car had a clutch and manual shifter. My wife's had paddle shifts. I understand both in their context, but nothing beats having just no gear, and therefore not having or needing a physical shifting object in the middle, or paddles around the steering wheel.

Also, I never used the damn paddle shifts. It's a stupid thing.

 

[vapor trail]

People on here cannot wait to crap on Tesla for every little thing wrong with the car. I think most would say the yoke sucks if it did suck. Time will tell if it was ultimately a dumb idea and becomes the Pinto of the steering world.

I have said before, in the weeks leading up to delivery I had doubts and if given the choice would probably have taken the round wheel. Now that I have over 2k mile I would not switch back. I have had emergency maneuvers and regular 8-pt turns - it is fine. I believe the biggest reason I assimilated so easy was that I NEVER drive above 9 and 3. I have always rested hands at 9/3 or below. So I do not miss that above - even when reversing or turning.

I had my wife drive it for a while on city/rural streets to get her take. She is definitely a creature of habit and drive a Jeep. She immediately became accustomed to the yoke. Said it was not difficult but was weird. Granted, she did not do anything really difficult in the steering department. She did have difficulty with the turn signals and not looking down for them - that will take her time. I do not miss the stalks but would like the buttons arranged differently.

Also, on the other hand, most people poopooing on the yoke have yet to drive it or give it the proverbial fair shake. They have passed judgement and will not budge.

Again, some will say I am an apologist or living in fantasy but if you have a boring life you are welcome to ride with me to see what I am saying is true to my situation.

I disagree that forum members are generally waiting to pounce on Tesla for every little thing. I've been a long time Tesla fan, and am on my second Model S.

Unfortunately, I've experienced first hand the drop in quality of customer service over the years. I currently have two problems with my 2019 car that I'm not sure will ever be corrected: yellowing screens -- now recurring following their UV fix and shudder under acceleration. My experience isn't unique, and having Tesla not coming up with a solution to these problems is fairly horrendous, IMO. Never mind not being able to simply call a service center or enjoying the benefit of a loaner. Every other car I've owned, reaching service dept has been simple and service advisors often took time to get to know specific cars/customers, enhancing the experience. And early on, service always had a Tesla loaner available. I remember Musk once announcing that they'd stock every SC with P100D loaners for all customers. Well, we see how that went. He was uber wrong.

Now that they've released the refreshed Model S, it's totally fair game for us to share our opinions. Some like the stalkless, yoke Model S. Some of us frankly think it's stupid. Count me in the latter category. What makes it even more frustrating to me is how close they came to nailing the update, if they simply hadn't messed with what was already working so well.

I'm still holding out hope that service will someday correct my car's defects. I'd also like to see FSD make real progress. But, like many on this forum, I'm not a blinded sycophant. And I think it's fair game to call a yoke a joke.

 

[Dan D.]

I've absolutely no objection to someone who wants the look of a yoke to get one

If they bond a tube arc of aluminum oxynitride to the top of a yoke, you can have the "look" of a yoke and mostly see through it, while still retain the round steering wheel. Assuming it's a safe material to use. IDK

And hey, using transparent aluminum is going to max out the geek factor too.

What’s The Deal With Transparent Aluminum?

It looks like a tube made of glass but it’s actually aluminum. Well, aluminum with an asterisk beside it — this is not elemental aluminum but rather a material made using it. We got ont…

hackaday.com

Mainly a joke post, but it might work.

 

[Dan D.]

I've absolutely no objection to someone who wants the look of a yoke to get one - why should I have? But I can see millions of people having incidents caused by them, and Tesla having to bring back the wheel if only to regain sales.

They will bring back the wheel, likely offer both. It's New Coke marketing.

 

[kizamybute']

Common argument is that "you'll get used to it". Yes, the human mind does adapt to just about anything. But, just because you're "used to it" doesn't mean it's better! As noted, I've tried driving as if the top half of the wheel weren't there. Didn't like it. Wasn't as comfortable for my preferred driving position. Yes, could get used to it, but, for $100K+, I don't want to have to get used to it just because Elon thinks it's cool. Some of these things are, without argument, less functional and/or user friendly than they were. Having to look for the horn button in a panic is not better. Having to take my eyes away to find the shifter on the screen is in no way possible, easier than keeping my hands in place and simply flicking my finger up or down on the stalk. Having to set AP speed on the center screen is in no way easier than flicking up and down on a stalk within fingers reach of my hand safely on the steering wheel.

I've never given a second thought to my view of the instrument cluster being blocked by the steering wheel. I would be giving a lot of second thoughts (not kind ones) when I reached for my steering wheel in a panic and it wasn't there! Same thing when someone is about to back into me and I panic and try to quickly slam the horn button to hopefully get their attention and its not there, or instead have to look to find the tiny little button for it to one side of the wheel. The center horn can be easily reached with either hand immediately. The little horn touch button would be difficult to get to with your left hand in a panic.

I "can" write with my left hand, but doesn't mean it's better than writing with my dominant right hand. I can .............with my left hand too, but doesn't mean it's better! I can get used to a yappy little high-pitched dog in the back ground, but doesn't mean it's better than one that doesn't bark all day. I can shower with my clothes on, but doesn't mean its better. Just because you can or will get used to it, doesn't mean it's better. As I've noted before, I tried to live with a Model 3 a couple years ago. Yes, it still got me from point A to point B. Yes, I got used to the the way it had to be operated. But, operating the Model S was SO MUCH BETTER AND EASIER and therefore, far more enjoyable. Best move I made was getting rid of the 3 and going back to the Model S. I truly noticed a difference in my mood when I got home each day. The Model 3 annoyed me, after having lived with the Model S for years, thus noticed all the things the 3 was missing. Had I never owned an S, maybe wouldn't have noticed, but since I did, it was a big difference. Was so much more at peace and in a better mood each day when I went back to the Model S. I've always been one that preferred "luxury" cars. Sacrificed those for the Model S and was mostly happy to do so. But, wouldn't do it again with a Model 3. The new Model S is just a fancier Model 3 now, if not worse with even more functions now limited to just the center screen or touch buttons on the wheel. Hopefully, someday Tesla will offer a more driver friendly car like the Model S was prior to the refresh. If they do, I'll reconsider. In the meantime, I'll enjoy getting back several true luxury features I've missed for the past 9 years with my next car. The new Mercedes EV sedan looks pretty impressive. The Audi GT is quite appealing as well. Even the Cadillac Lyriq looks pretty nice. Jaguar is shifting their XJ to electric as well. For 9-10 years, Tesla was the only high-end EV game in town. There are currently some good options available now with several more coming over the next year. As customers, we now have options. All of the other options are still designed for people to "DRIVE THEM". Tesla is too far ahead of itself with the 3 and New S being designed to be driverless, since we are still years away from these cars being truly FSD. When/If the time comes that they are true FSD, then my needs / preferences will change. In the meantime. I still want a car that has driver friendly function.

Have heard from a few that say they have the new Plaid, but haven't yet heard any feedback regarding the shifter? Most have said the yoke is awkward. They get used to it, but its still awkward either way. Curious about how users feel about the shifter though???

 

[Wol747]

Excellent appraisal.
None of us has mentioned the wipers yet! Not having been inside the New Improved S I can only guess that the wipers are only used on automatic and there's no stalk for them? If so I sincerely hope they are better in auto than the 2020 S, which are effectively useless unless switched on the stalk - in fact I have dispensed with auto for more than a year.
As you rightly say, because one can get used to something doesn't in any way mean it's better. As an ex Tesla fanboy myself I am concerned for the future of the company if it continues to brag what's coming "soon" while ignoring the many issues with the software, service centres, lack of any phone contacts etc. There are over a couple of hundred EV models available worldwide now I am told and in all but battery tech and charging network they all appear superior to Tesla's offerings.

 

[MagnusMako]

I watched Matt Farrah’s review of the Porsche GT3 Touring today on YouTube and noted his enthusiastic endorsement of the perfectly round wheel, praising it as the best steering device available on the market right now, because it works perfectly for its intended task.

How ‘bout that.

Haha yes I saw that. Definitely taking a proper jab at Tesla. Here's the clip at 12:21 if anyone wants to watch.

 

[Wol747]

>>Also, on the other hand, most people poopooing on the yoke have yet to drive it or give it the proverbial fair shake. They have passed judgement and will not budge.<<

Not really fair! You can't judge something like that on a demo run, and certainly not splash out $200k on something "just to try it out"!

 

[mark95476]

Agree with no gears.

I'm never going to get a vehicle where I have to row gears every again. Paddles were a great evolution--I never worried about the money shift with paddles. Having a manual and being used to engine braking made switching to a Tesla natural.

My previous car had a clutch and manual shifter. My wife's had paddle shifts. I understand both in their context, but nothing beats having just no gear, and therefore not having or needing a physical shifting object in the middle, or paddles around the steering wheel.

Also, I never used the damn paddle shifts. It's a stupid thing.

Tesla is doing fine. They sell everything they make and are on a very steep upwards trajectory. They'll have their quarterly investor meeting next week.

"The competition is coming" is tired and hasn't panned out.

Excellent appraisal.
None of us has mentioned the wipers yet! Not having been inside the New Improved S I can only guess that the wipers are only used on automatic and there's no stalk for them? If so I sincerely hope they are better in auto than the 2020 S, which are effectively useless unless switched on the stalk - in fact I have dispensed with auto for more than a year.
As you rightly say, because one can get used to something doesn't in any way mean it's better. As an ex Tesla fanboy myself I am concerned for the future of the company if it continues to brag what's coming "soon" while ignoring the many issues with the software, service centres, lack of any phone contacts etc. There are over a couple of hundred EV models available worldwide now I am told and in all but battery tech and charging network they all appear superior to Tesla's offerings.

 

[TessP100D]

Haha yes I saw that. Definitely taking a proper jab at Tesla. Here's the clip at 12:21 if anyone wants to watch.

And it is. So sad Tesla has ruined the S. And I’m sure, the CT will be next.

 

[Wol747]

I just can't comprehend the thinking behind it.
I cannot see any advantages except - perhaps for some people - visibility of the IC.
Surely changing anything that works well for something new must be done because the new model is better - and it patently is not in this case. I don't think anyone says it is - plenty say you "get used to it", which is not the same.
Tesla could put Reuleaux Triangles on the cars instead of the more usual/normal/oldfashioned wheels, but why would they, just to be different?