It isn't the crash itself, but how the car dealt with it.
Now, if the car was doing 200 mph, I don't know that any investigation would be useful.
If the car was doing 70, perhaps one would be useful.
Actor Paul Walker Dead - Fiery Porsche Crash
- Thread starter TommyBoy
- Start date
It isn't the crash itself, but how the car dealt with it.
Now, if the car was doing 200 mph, I don't know that any investigation would be useful.
If the car was doing 70, perhaps one would be useful.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
RR,
Personal responsibility.
I want the freedom to put whatever I want under my right foot. I will also pay the price should my judgement fail.
Lastly, I believe the acceleration in your MS is far more dangerous within the capabilities of the car than that of a CGT. Tesla recognized this and did an OUTSTANDING job with the brakes.
Personal responsibility.
I want the freedom to put whatever I want under my right foot. I will also pay the price should my judgement fail.
Lastly, I believe the acceleration in your MS is far more dangerous within the capabilities of the car than that of a CGT. Tesla recognized this and did an OUTSTANDING job with the brakes.
caddieo
Member
Truly unfortunate but the world goes on so it is worth pointing out without comment that a drunk driver in Mexico goes through a concrete barrier at 100 mph and walks away from the burning car. Two separate MS accidents in Tennessee knocked down two telephone poles without burning or fatalities. An MS driver in California walks away from a head-on collision with a Honda while the 2 Honda occupants died.
I agree. This is all very sad.
Can you explain what it means for a car to be neutral and why such cars are difficult for non skilled drivers to handle? Do people without track experience overcompensate and spin out? I always hear about certain cars being diffult to handle and was wondering what makes them so. I've always had cars with traction control and other safety features but imagine the Porsche has that as well. Just curious.
This is why we have professional drivers and closed circuit tracks. This was sooooo preventable and hope alcohol was not involved. Ugh!
ian B
ian B
Neutral means that the car has neither a tendency to oversteer or understeer. Oversteer means that the car turns more with a given steering wheel input. In practice, this makes the rear end of the car swing out and the car spins or rolls over. Because the car can swap ends in less than a second even a professional race car driver can easily get into trouble. (Note that for certain kinds of events/tracks cars are set up to oversteer.) Most cars are designed with understeer because it takes more steering wheel input to turn the front wheels. This makes it harder to spin out but the steering response is slower. A car that has neutral steering is very responsive but is so close to oversteer that it's easy to spin out. People who haven't taken track classes in their neutral steering car can easily get into trouble.
There are reports that the driver was a pro driver from the SCCA Pirelli World Challenge. the F1 journo Adam Cooper tweeted that.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Traction control deals with traction in the direction of the car (for the most part). It does not help that much with oversteer.
The difficulty with the CGT is that it is built with very little inherent understeer or push. Normally street cars are set up by the factory such that, when you get into a corner too fast, the front wheels loose grip first. The driver feels this when the steering wheel "goes soft" or becomes easier to turn. Most driver's natural reaction is to lift off the throttle which transfers weight from the rear of the car to the front, adds more front grip and thus allows the car to turn (while also decreasing speed). In control terms it is positive stability. The natural reaction helps correct the problem.
The CGT (and the third generation RX-7) are very neutral cars. If you get into a corner with sufficient speed and maintain throttle input at a reasonable level, both the front and rear will start to drift in unison. Very slight changes in throttle will allow the driver to maintain this balance and thus provides the best use of available grip. A slight lift allows the car to rotate while increasing throttle allows you to open up the corner. The down side to this that the natural reaction of most drivers is to, again, lift when things get strange (tires start to slip at high speeds). This natural reaction by the driver really lets the car rotate and, unless you have very good reactions, this rotation continues in a PCGT. The car is very stiffly sprung which gives it a small time constant. The corrections for oversteer, free or loose must be input very quickly and removed just as quickly. If you have ever seen Montoya deal with an F1 car stepping out in the back you know what quick hands look like
The concept of "never lift" sounds like testosterone filled bluster but there is actually a grain of truth to it.
The US has mandated traction control or stability control on all new vehicles. The spec that governs compliance is FM-VSS 126. One of the tests literally attaches a steering machine onto the steering wheel. The test driver then accelerates to the test speed and the machine yanks the wheel one way, back the other, pauses then back straight again. This simulates an emergency drive around maneuver and tests a car's susceptibility to oversteer. In MS' case, the application of rear brakes can help a little but the real way they manage the pendulum affect of these types of maneuvers is to use more rear negative camber. When the car starts to swing out, it loads the outside rear wheel which pushes more contact patch onto the ground and thus help arrest oversteer. When Tesla stiffened up the rear of the car with stiffer bushings, they rebalanced the sway bars and went to staggered rims/tires to put more rubber in the rear.
If memory serves me, the CGT was based on a Le Mans chassis. This racing heritage may have a lot to do with its neutral nature. Porsche is coming back to this series with Mark Webber next year. It will be interesting to see what they field.
On a personal note, I learned to drive ChampCars by inching up on a balanced car. The very best example is starting off at Road America braking and downshifting a gear before the kink. I put understeer in the car such that it pushed all the way through the carousel and then went progressively faster through the kink that followed. I'd just had the car pushing through the previous corner so I knew the back would not step out on me. I continued to go through the kink faster and faster with the steering never getting lighter. In fact, I had to wedge myself in the tub so I could turn the wheel. The result was 171 mph through the kink at about 4G lateral and a three second drop in my lap time (carried that speed all the way to Canada corner). The next step, if I were a pro, would be to slowly dial out the understeer in the carousel thus allowing me to exit that corner a little faster. Moreno had about five miles an hour on me through the kink which is an eternity.
Here is some back to back data as I learned how to get though fast corners without lifting
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Performance/Road America 03 v 04.pdf
This is what happens in that same corner with oversteer (K. Legg lost the rear wing flap)-
Katherine Legge crash Road America 2006 - YouTube
Katherine walked away which is why I moved from aluminum honeycomb GTP cars to carbon ChampCars.
The difficulty with the CGT is that it is built with very little inherent understeer or push. Normally street cars are set up by the factory such that, when you get into a corner too fast, the front wheels loose grip first. The driver feels this when the steering wheel "goes soft" or becomes easier to turn. Most driver's natural reaction is to lift off the throttle which transfers weight from the rear of the car to the front, adds more front grip and thus allows the car to turn (while also decreasing speed). In control terms it is positive stability. The natural reaction helps correct the problem.
The CGT (and the third generation RX-7) are very neutral cars. If you get into a corner with sufficient speed and maintain throttle input at a reasonable level, both the front and rear will start to drift in unison. Very slight changes in throttle will allow the driver to maintain this balance and thus provides the best use of available grip. A slight lift allows the car to rotate while increasing throttle allows you to open up the corner. The down side to this that the natural reaction of most drivers is to, again, lift when things get strange (tires start to slip at high speeds). This natural reaction by the driver really lets the car rotate and, unless you have very good reactions, this rotation continues in a PCGT. The car is very stiffly sprung which gives it a small time constant. The corrections for oversteer, free or loose must be input very quickly and removed just as quickly. If you have ever seen Montoya deal with an F1 car stepping out in the back you know what quick hands look like
The concept of "never lift" sounds like testosterone filled bluster but there is actually a grain of truth to it.
The US has mandated traction control or stability control on all new vehicles. The spec that governs compliance is FM-VSS 126. One of the tests literally attaches a steering machine onto the steering wheel. The test driver then accelerates to the test speed and the machine yanks the wheel one way, back the other, pauses then back straight again. This simulates an emergency drive around maneuver and tests a car's susceptibility to oversteer. In MS' case, the application of rear brakes can help a little but the real way they manage the pendulum affect of these types of maneuvers is to use more rear negative camber. When the car starts to swing out, it loads the outside rear wheel which pushes more contact patch onto the ground and thus help arrest oversteer. When Tesla stiffened up the rear of the car with stiffer bushings, they rebalanced the sway bars and went to staggered rims/tires to put more rubber in the rear.
If memory serves me, the CGT was based on a Le Mans chassis. This racing heritage may have a lot to do with its neutral nature. Porsche is coming back to this series with Mark Webber next year. It will be interesting to see what they field.
On a personal note, I learned to drive ChampCars by inching up on a balanced car. The very best example is starting off at Road America braking and downshifting a gear before the kink. I put understeer in the car such that it pushed all the way through the carousel and then went progressively faster through the kink that followed. I'd just had the car pushing through the previous corner so I knew the back would not step out on me. I continued to go through the kink faster and faster with the steering never getting lighter. In fact, I had to wedge myself in the tub so I could turn the wheel. The result was 171 mph through the kink at about 4G lateral and a three second drop in my lap time (carried that speed all the way to Canada corner). The next step, if I were a pro, would be to slowly dial out the understeer in the carousel thus allowing me to exit that corner a little faster. Moreno had about five miles an hour on me through the kink which is an eternity.
Here is some back to back data as I learned how to get though fast corners without lifting
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Performance/Road America 03 v 04.pdf
This is what happens in that same corner with oversteer (K. Legg lost the rear wing flap)-
Katherine Legge crash Road America 2006 - YouTube
Katherine walked away which is why I moved from aluminum honeycomb GTP cars to carbon ChampCars.
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SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
According to Clarkson on Top Gear (but we all know what that can be worth…), the Stig spun the CGT at least four times when he went out to set a time around their track (dry). Apparently he needed a whole morning of practice before he did set the time.
Now, as I understand it, there are at least one person in this thread that has met one of the men that died. I of course understand if you, or anyone else, don’t feel like watching something out of a Top Gear segment.
The loss of life is as always as tragic as it gets. And we all feel for their loved ones. But as someone else wrote (paraphrasing): If now is not the time to learn – then when?
And this is the only footage of someone allegedly loosing control of a CGT that I’m aware of…
So if you’re interested, you can see what it looked like when the Stig involuntarily (?) spun a CGT at 6:19:
Now, as I understand it, there are at least one person in this thread that has met one of the men that died. I of course understand if you, or anyone else, don’t feel like watching something out of a Top Gear segment.
The loss of life is as always as tragic as it gets. And we all feel for their loved ones. But as someone else wrote (paraphrasing): If now is not the time to learn – then when?
And this is the only footage of someone allegedly loosing control of a CGT that I’m aware of…
So if you’re interested, you can see what it looked like when the Stig involuntarily (?) spun a CGT at 6:19:
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Chickenlittle
Banned
The braking power of my tesla is unbelievable. Last night it saved my car and a deers life. Never tested the brakes before but a dark night a deer jumped out into the road from the right on a two lane road. I can testify to the braking power. Close enough to see deer looking at me. I was convinced I wouldn't be able to stop in time but just did. Thank you tesla
Jackl1956
Active Member
My heartfelt condolences to the family of Paul Walker. That said, this event is germane to vehicle safety, vehicle fires, media, and Tesla.
Adam Cooper is reporting that the driver was Roger Rodas, a Pirelli World Challenge regular driver
Raffy.Roma
Active Member
Agree. I said the same thing in a previous post of this thread. But in that post I didn't mention the Model S meaning to say that IMO NHTSA should start the investigations also on this accident independently from any other reasons (or comparisons) related to the Model S.
Jackl1956
Active Member
Internet message boards are buzzing with the news of Paul Walker and the comparison of Porsche to Tesla. Whether it is appropriate or not, will not be considered by the media. It will be interesting to see how the media reports this. Or not.
Krugerrand
Is Cat
Except when others are on the road and you (general) endanger their lives as well. Fortunately in this case only those in the car were hurt, but what would you(personally) have to say if some innocent person also got nailed? Freedom ends when it affects others.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume the passenger wasn't an innocent in this case. This lies strictly on the shoulders of the driver.
Krugerrand
Is Cat
Don't know and neither do you. Given the actor's background, it's as reasonable to think he was just fine with how the driver was driving as is it to think otherwise. But you knew what I meant in my post to lolachampcar.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Krug,
I agree as I was raised not to endanger others. I have driven and continue to drive some of the cars RR felt should be banned. I've done so without injuring myself or others.
I would prefer to live in a world where the rules are made based on personal responsibility and not to cater to the lowest common denominator. Those that use poor judgment will continue to do so without regard for the rules.
I agree as I was raised not to endanger others. I have driven and continue to drive some of the cars RR felt should be banned. I've done so without injuring myself or others.
I would prefer to live in a world where the rules are made based on personal responsibility and not to cater to the lowest common denominator. Those that use poor judgment will continue to do so without regard for the rules.
Raffy.Roma
Active Member
Agree. I suppose that this happen because you are a skilled driver. That's why I think that some particular cars (acceleration to 100 Km/h below 3.5 sec) should be driven by persons with a special license drive.
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