nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Would be nice if the media reported ALL ICE fires so people could see how unsafe they really are.... but there probably isn't enough room on the internet...
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Actor Paul Walker Dead - Fiery Porsche Crash
- Thread starter TommyBoy
- Start date
RobStark
Well-Known Member
The Communist and the Fascist can make a compelling case that virtually all your actions affect others.
How much and what you eat affects healthcare cost.
What you drive affects the price of oil which directly affects the national economy.
How many children you have affects the near future of the economy.
Are we left with only the freedom to be perfect?
Whether it is with a professional driver or just a regular guy behind the wheels. We are all human and we make mistakes. The margin for error with the CGT is minimal and judging by the photos on the internet, the CGT was probably moving well into triple digits. This car can get to those speeds very quickly and the engine / transmission begs for higher speeds.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
That will never work without democracy.
I’ve never seen any such case.
Krugerrand
Meow
Again, a person who understood what I meant but decided to take it out of context. The poster I quoted was talking about having the freedom to choose whatever car they wanted to drive, even if that meant they didn't have the skills to drive it, nor the decent courtesy to obey the laws and think of their fellow man....as in SPECIFICALLY our speeding Porsche that killed driver and passenger (and luckily not some Soccer Mom with a van full of kids). While the driver appears to have had the skill level for such a vehicle, he clearly lacked the latter point in that moment. So, you'd like to argue that that person (had he lived) still retain full freedoms...like the freedom to drive again in a powerful sports car on the same highway as you and your family?
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
[1] If we somehow could go through all the actions of every living adult on the planet today, I’m pretty sure we could find hundreds of thousands of personal examples of the contrary. Just one: The current POTUS used illegal drugs as a teenager, but according to himself, never as an adult.
[2] These people have a lot of children. So that is a lot of childhoods…
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Krug,
I trust you were not writing about me. If you were, let me put my point more bluntly.
Writing laws to deal with cars does not change the fact that stupid people will do stupid things. Can they be just slightly less deadly if they have a twin turbo 911 instead of a CGT? Maybe but then we are just talking degrees.
The easy way out is to outlaw everything you do not understand or appreciate. The harder way out is to defend freedom and raise kids with better judgement. Doing so requires an environment where those kids can make and learn from their mistakes without killing themselves or others. We can raise kids that can get in a car that is way over their heads, recognize that fact and behave accordingly. You can apply the same thought process to guns, financial markets and having children.
Concentrate on competence in decision making and everything else takes care of itself.
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RR,
I was not born knowing how to drive balanced cars near the limit. I'm nothing special. I was raised to appreciate mechanical things and approach them with the respect they deserve. I drove many a car that were well beyond my skill but none were beyond my ability to control my right foot. Put differently, anyone can get in a CGT and go for a drive (provided you can drive a manual and have some patience with that clutch) without crashing.
The issue is judgement not skill.
Chickenlittle
Banned
ing
I don't know the car but assume the gas tank in back. More damage to rear than front. Is most of the damage exploding gas tank?
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
The car is a derivative of the LeMans prototype. It consists of a carbon tub with the engine mounted to the back of the tub. There is a carbon cradle that goes from the tub to bell housing behind the engine thus making the engine a semi-stressed component. The gearbox contains the differential and is mounted to the bell housing on the back of the motor. This configuration is typical of mid-engined cars like the V8 Ferraris and the like. Normally the fuel cell for race cars is located between the occupants and the engine. I believe this is the case for the CGT but and not absolutely sure.
Normally these fires start from ruptured lines in the engine compartment be they fuel or oil. The hot exhaust acts as the ignition source and the carbon body work, once ignited, keeps things going.
This will give you an idea of the layout.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2006/2006-Porsche-Carrera-GT-Cutaway-1920x1440.jpg
Here is the same tub, engine, gearbox concept on an open wheel car. The engine is a fully stressed member thus no cradle is required to support gearbox and suspension loads.
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/99%20Shell/100_0168.JPG
Normally these fires start from ruptured lines in the engine compartment be they fuel or oil. The hot exhaust acts as the ignition source and the carbon body work, once ignited, keeps things going.
This will give you an idea of the layout.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2006/2006-Porsche-Carrera-GT-Cutaway-1920x1440.jpg
Here is the same tub, engine, gearbox concept on an open wheel car. The engine is a fully stressed member thus no cradle is required to support gearbox and suspension loads.
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/99%20Shell/100_0168.JPG
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dhanson865
Well-Known Member
that people article says it happened on a long straightaway with no skid marks left. Did the brakes fail, did the steering fail, how could there not be signs of braking if they were heading towards a solid object unless the car violently swerved?
Tire blowout causing the swerve?
Loss of steering unrelated to the tires?
No change in steering, but not enough brake force applied to make skid marks?
Lots of questions and not enough answers at this point.
Tire blowout causing the swerve?
Loss of steering unrelated to the tires?
No change in steering, but not enough brake force applied to make skid marks?
Lots of questions and not enough answers at this point.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
The car knocked over a light pole before that little tree stopped it... Not a fair comparison but in case anyone missed it this is what happens when a Model S hits a pole;
Certainly being in an unfamiliar car that is known to be difficult to drive could have been a factor in this accident. But that's a simplistic solution that won't solve anything.
Race cars are designed for balanced suspension. Having a well-balanced car means an experienced race car driver can use nearly all the available grip on all four wheels, which means you can go around corners faster. However, it's inherently less stable.
Street cars are normally designed for "understeer". If the car starts to slide, it's the front wheels that go first. The driver's instinctive reaction of lifting the gas pedal causes weight transfer onto the front wheels and improves the turning, as well as slowing the car. They are inherently stable.
When the rear wheels slide first the car "oversteers". If that is not corrected quickly the car will spin. Even a very experienced street car driver isn't likely to be able to recover from a spin, because he doesn't have any knowledge, training, or experience of driving a car at the limit of grip. Lifting the gas pedal is usually the worst thing you could do, as it transfers weight forward and gives the rear tires even less traction. Instead you need to keep the throttle on and counter-steer. Even experienced race car drivers can't always recover, and then all you can do is plant the brakes and hold on!
I really don't think the government can legislate car handling in any sensible way.
We won't know what was the cause of this tragedy was any time soon - perhaps never - but calling for simplistic solutions to complex problems is not the answer.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Doug,
The government is already legislating handling. See FM VSS 126, specifically II-5 Oversteering Test Maneuver.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhtsa.gov%2FDOT%2FNHTSA%2FRulemaking%2FRules%2FAssociated%2520Files%2FESC_FRIA_%252003_2007.pdf&ei=cM-bUtHhCovpoATGqIC4BA&usg=AFQjCNGbhGPSNFtSL3s8ErGRbhB1-vFJVg&sig2=3dsKTrTV79hBUzCeZgqQXg&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU
The government is already legislating handling. See FM VSS 126, specifically II-5 Oversteering Test Maneuver.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhtsa.gov%2FDOT%2FNHTSA%2FRulemaking%2FRules%2FAssociated%2520Files%2FESC_FRIA_%252003_2007.pdf&ei=cM-bUtHhCovpoATGqIC4BA&usg=AFQjCNGbhGPSNFtSL3s8ErGRbhB1-vFJVg&sig2=3dsKTrTV79hBUzCeZgqQXg&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU
Okay, right, they've legislated a nanny system (stability control). However it explicitly allows for an optional ESC Off switch, and doesn't tell them how to set up their suspensions.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
yes, but the only way to pass the oversteer test is by adding negative camber (and make the car inherently pushy of course). Electronics can not stop a pendulum kicked into motion...... Most manufacturers use the "roll onto more rubber" approach and there is no switch to turn off that camber 
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Source: 911uk.com - Porsche Forum, Specialist, Insurance, Car For Sale, Finance, Parts & Service : View topic - Paul Walker: RIP
(About two/thirds down the page.)
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The fuel tank. Found the pictures here:
Porsche Carrera GT Fuel Tank Porsche Part No 98020101303 Complete Fuel Tank | eBay
NigelM
Recovering Member
I'll confess that I when I first saw this thread I had to google Walker as I didn't know who he was; what I find kind of sad today is how the media all report about Paul Walker and folks everywhere seem to be posting RIP Paul and that's ok but I'd like to add at least one RIP and thought for the other guy who died, apparently Roger Rodas who also leaves behind a wife and two kids (some reports claim his 8-year-old son saw the crash).
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