Adding solar to existing NEM 1.0 system options

[oktane]

Hi,

Looking for advice here on adding additional solar and switching from a smaller NEM 1.0 setup to a larger 2.0 setup.

Background:
I currently have a grid-tied 10kW system on NEM 1.0. I end up still requiring about 10,000 kWh from the grid a year costing me about $3,000/year on true-up billing. I'm currently on a tiered rate plan as allowed under NEM 1.0.

Proposal:
I'm debating adding extra solar. If I add another 12kW system for an extra 16,500 kWh production (80% safety factor for required + 3,000 kWh a year for another EV 10k mi/yr) cost is about $31,000. But it will require me to switch to NEM 2.0 and go from tiered to TOU with non-bypassable charges.

Questions for anyone able to tackle:
-would it make sense to add a second meter and have a split NEM 1.0/2.0 setup to save on NBCs?
-what is the likely impact of switching to NEM 2.0? As I don't have a smart meter, I don't know how many kWh I'm consuming from the grid or how many kWh during peak hours.
-At the time I installed the panels, conventional thinking was to undersize the PV system for maximum ROI. I was counting on the cost for PV to go down but it didn't work out that way. Now several years later, in retrospect I should have over-sized my NEM 1.0 setup.
-I'd like to insulate myself from more price hikes down the road. I suspect the cost per kWh to go up over time, and the TOU peak periods to expand from 4-9pm to 4 to 11pm and beyond, and the base monthly fee to increase even under NEM 2.0.
-Is there any benefit of Powerwalls if backup is not a concern when on NEM 2.0? The ROI seems like it would take forever.

 

[RKCRLR]

Keep in mind that if you don't add a separate meter your 20 grandfathering period for your NEM 2 system will be starting from the date you installed the NEM 1 system. Also, if you are just starting you may have difficulty getting a system installed in time to be under NEM 2.

 

[oktane]

Not good that I won't get the full 20 years after switching if that's the case. If I go dual meter, not sure how I'd decide which loads go on which meter. Would assume I'd put the EVs on the TOU though to take advantage of lower "super off peak" rates.

 

[Vines]

Not good that I won't get the full 20 years after switching if that's the case. If I go dual meter, not sure how I'd decide which loads go on which meter. Would assume I'd put the EVs on the TOU though to take advantage of lower "super off peak" rates.

If I was you I wouldn't try for a second meter and all that complication this late in the game with NEM 2.0 on the doorstep. I would add the second system to the same meter as the first one.

I would probably also replace the inverter on the old system if possible to a new one about 1000W larger or so even if I didn't change the count of PV panels on that system. This way the entire system is grandfathered under NEM 2.0, assuming you have just a short time left on NEM 1.0

How long do you have left on your NEM 1.0 plan? I suspect that even with a single meter if you didn't expand the original system, the NEM 1.0 grandfathering would expire when 20 years go by from initial installation date. When this happened the older system would get bumped to NEM 3.0 which is likely worse overall. if this happens in just a few years you might want to mitigate the effects now while you can.

Certainly a 3rd party installer who is paying attention can get you under NEM 2.0 still, at least in PG&E territory.

 

[wwu123]

If I was you I wouldn't try for a second meter and all that complication this late in the game with NEM 2.0 on the doorstep. I would add the second system to the same meter as the first one.

I would probably also replace the inverter on the old system if possible to a new one about 1000W larger or so even if I didn't change the count of PV panels on that system. This way the entire system is grandfathered under NEM 2.0, assuming you have just a short time left on NEM 1.0

How long do you have left on your NEM 1.0 plan? I suspect that even with a single meter if you didn't expand the original system, the NEM 1.0 grandfathering would expire when 20 years go by from initial installation date. When this happened the older system would get bumped to NEM 3.0 which is likely worse overall. if this happens in just a few years you might want to mitigate the effects now while you can.

Certainly a 3rd party installer who is paying attention can get you under NEM 2.0 still, at least in PG&E territory.

I get your first paragraph about not bothering with complexity and possible delay with a 2nd meter. But the rest of it - wait, what?

Are you suggesting there's a way to reset a 20-year NEM grandfathering clock? I was under the impression whatever of the 20 years left on your original grandfathering, that was it, period. Not just for one's original system, but also for any additional system mods or system adds, regardless of NEM1 or NEM2 - at least under a single meter/account.

Somehow I'm interpreting you saying that not only would a second system have it's own 20 years on NEM2, but if you muck with the inverter on the first system, you also reset the clock on the first system. That can't be correct, can it? As I have about 10 years left currently on NEM1, and I'd love get 20 years on NEM2 for anything, old, new, whatever....

 

[oktane]

I am not getting definitive answers regarding "reset the clock" for a NEM1 system when getting a new NEM2 interconnection agreement. Another confounder is some NEM3 websites refer to a proposed retroactive limit of NEM1 or NEM2 to 15 years. Not sure how that would be fair.

 

[Vines]

I get your first paragraph about not bothering with complexity and possible delay with a 2nd meter. But the rest of it - wait, what?

Are you suggesting there's a way to reset a 20-year NEM grandfathering clock? I was under the impression whatever of the 20 years left on your original grandfathering, that was it, period. Not just for one's original system, but also for any additional system mods or system adds, regardless of NEM1 or NEM2 - at least under a single meter/account.

Somehow I'm interpreting you saying that not only would a second system have it's own 20 years on NEM2, but if you muck with the inverter on the first system, you also reset the clock on the first system. That can't be correct, can it? As I have about 10 years left currently on NEM1, and I'd love get 20 years on NEM2 for anything, old, new, whatever....

I am not this department but my understanding is if you modify the system more than 1 kW or 10% in size, then you are required to get a new permit and interconnection agreement. Granted this would take some money in new inverters and maybe RSD technology since PGE will require a new signed off permit for the replaced and larger inverter. You could also I believe add more than 1000w of panels to the same effect, assuming your existing Inverter was Rule 21 compliant, but that would be unlikely given the timing.

Nobody except your utility really knows this answer so I wouldn't bank on it without others also corroborating this.

 

[h2ofun]

I am not this department but my understanding is if you modify the system more than 1 kW or 10% in size, then you are required to get a new permit and interconnection agreement. Granted this would take some money in new inverters and maybe RSD technology since PGE will require a new signed off permit for the replaced and larger inverter. You could also I believe add more than 1000w of panels to the same effect, assuming your existing Inverter was Rule 21 compliant, but that would be unlikely given the timing.

Nobody except your utility really knows this answer so I wouldn't bank on it without others also corroborating this.

If one adds panels, no matter the amount, and does not get a new agreement with PGE, then you will not get credit if you exceed the max generation amount you send back. If you use it all, then at least this is a non issue.

 

[rando]

Also, if you are just starting you may have difficulty getting a system installed in time to be under NEM 2.

Does the system have to be 'installed' prior to the 4/14/23 to qualify for NEM 2 or just a completed interconnection application, signed contract, single line diagram and attestation for oversizing?

 

[RKCRLR]

I am not this department but my understanding is if you modify the system more than 1 kW or 10% in size, then you are required to get a new permit and interconnection agreement. Granted this would take some money in new inverters and maybe RSD technology since PGE will require a new signed off permit for the replaced and larger inverter. You could also I believe add more than 1000w of panels to the same effect, assuming your existing Inverter was Rule 21 compliant, but that would be unlikely given the timing.

Nobody except your utility really knows this answer so I wouldn't bank on it without others also corroborating this.

I found you can't rely on your utility either.
I had my original system installed in 2009 under NEM 1 and upgraded it in 2019 under NEM 2. Both my installer and PG&E verbally told me that my clock was reset and my grandfathering under NEM 2 would go 20 years from 2019.
After some posts on this forum said it doesn't work this way I contacted PG&E again and was again told that it was 20 years from the last solar install PTO. I asked for something in writing but they refused to give it to me, they just pointed to documents that were ambiguous but, the way I interpreted them, that the grandfathering goes 20 years from the original PTO. I filed a complaint with the CPUC because I felt that something as important as this should be provided in writing. The CPUC didn't answer the question but refered me back to PG&E. PG&E eventually sent me an email confirming that the 20 year grandfathering was from the original PTO although the email was still ambiguous.

I wouldn't be surprised that if I asked the same question today that I would again be told that the 20 year grandfathering period goes from the date of the last solar install PTO.

 

[h2ofun]

I found you can't rely on your utility either.
I had my original system installed in 2009 under NEM 1 and upgraded it in 2019 under NEM 2. Both my installer and PG&E verbally told me that my clock was reset and my grandfathering under NEM 2 would go 20 years from 2019.
After some posts on this forum said it doesn't work this way I contacted PG&E again and was again told that it was 20 years from the last solar install PTO. I asked for something in writing but they refused to give it to me, they just pointed to documents that were ambiguous but, the way I interpreted them, that the grandfathering goes 20 years from the original PTO. I filed a complaint with the CPUC because I felt that something as important as this should be provided in writing. The CPUC didn't answer the question but refered me back to PG&E. PG&E eventually sent me an email confirming that the 20 year grandfathering was from the original PTO although the email was still ambiguous.

I wouldn't be surprised that if I asked the same question today that I would again be told that the 20 year grandfathering period goes from the date of the last solar install PTO.

Seems you just need to sell house before 2029? What a racket

 

[RKCRLR]

Seems you just need to sell house before 2029? What a racket

I'll wind up changing my habits. Currently I'm a net producer so I can be a little lazy with my use.
In 2030 I'll probably try to postpone things that require electricity to when the sun is shining. I have a dual fuel HVAC system so I'll probably use more propane for heating if it is cost effective. I also have a wood stove and as much wood as I feel like cutting and burning so I'll use that more often.