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Advice/feedback for an (atypical) prospetive buyer

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by hinckley, Feb 9, 2016.

  1. hinckley

    hinckley Member

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    First a quick introduction . . . I'm an older guy who loves performance cars. I've owned everything from BMW M5s to Porsche 911s (a 911 GTS is still my primary summer drive), and I've fallen in love with the Model S - not because it's an electric/green car, but because it's a phenomenal performance car. So now I'm trying to learn whether I can live with an electric car and I'd really appreciate some advice and feedback.

    I've driven both the 90D and P90D. I've been leaning toward the P90D even though I think it's a bit hard to justify the extra $20k. But tonight I read something in another post (difference between P85D and 85D.) which has me reconsidering that. You see, I have range anxiety about driving the MS in the winter to ski country. These are the longest trips that I regularly travel; by definition the temperature will be low and the roads may be snow covered; and northern New England is not Super Charger country. Now I know that I can make almost any trip by driving responsibly, but I'm a performance car driver and I tend to drive aggressively. And for me, it would really defeat the purpose of spending large money on a car like this, if I couldn't drive it the way I'd want to on my longest road trips. I hope that doesn't come across as petulant or offensive.

    But here's the quote from the above mentioned thread comparing the 85D and the P85D that intrigues me:
    Another difference is, the 85D can be driven at higher speed than P85D when the distance you have to drive is near limits. Let's say you need to drive 205 miles. Speed is the most important factor that determines energy consumption. If you can drive that distance in P85D at 75 mph, you can drive the same distance in 85D at 80 mph because you have more rated range to burn.

    Is that statement accurate? Does the 85D's 6-7% greater range compared to the P85D, equate to the ability to drive 6-7% faster and achieve the same range? If so, I may actually be able to drive a bit more "aggressively" with the 90D than the P90D. That (along with $20K in my pocket) may sway me back to the 90D. So what do the experts think?
     
  2. eye.surgeon

    eye.surgeon Member

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    Tire size has as much to do with consumption as the difference between an 90D and P90D. 21s use more, and have very limited winter tire selection if you're intent on taking it skiing. Consider 19s if range is a priority but I think you will find that range is a virtual non-issue after a while, when it seems like a huge issue pre-purchase.

    There are many of us here that came off of high performance German vehicles. I don't regret it one bit. Consider that each level of higher performance you buy gives you less return on your investment. My simple S85 more than satisfies my performance driving needs, and I've had many high performance cars. I also prefer my F150 for ski trips.
     
  3. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    The difference between the 90D and the P90D is only the rear motor. Both have dual motors. The 90D has the same motor in the front and in the back. The P90D has the same front motor, but a larger, more powerful rear motor. Electric motors are most efficient at 80-90% of their max load. They are less efficient at lower power levels. In other words, a large motor that can deliver a lot of power only runs at a small percentage of it's power at normal driving. Hence the system is less efficient, than a smaller motor that is being used closer to it's upper limit. That's why the cars with two smaller motors are a little more efficient than the cars with one small and one larger motor.

    So which one is the better choice? I guess it really depends on what is more important to you. I think the 90D is plenty fast, but if you want to have more fun and don't mind the extra $20k, go for it. If you really need the range, it's east to just reduce the speed a little and still make it home or to the next charger. But after having driven a Tesla for two years and 70k miles, range anxiety is completely non existent to me. You quickly learn how far you can go and for 99% of all trips you really don't have to waste a single thought. You always have enough range. Only a few times on long legs and bad weather you might have to plan a little. But the on board trip energy prediction helps keeping you calm and in control. You can always drive your P90D in a way that you will make it.

    So quite honestly, if you want to have fun, go with the P90D. You will realize range is much less of an issue when owning the car. A few times a year you will drive a little more careful, but you would have to do the same in the 90D. The other 362 days, you have more fun.

    JMHO
     
  4. Jason S

    Jason S Model S Sig Perf (P85)

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    I expect the rated range is really determined more by the tire size -- the typical 21s just aren't as efficient as your typical 19s. And, btw, the 19s will still get up and go in a straight line (just slightly worse cornering, I think). You should be running 19s in winter anyway.

    Second part is what others have said -- a long trip you'd just put on cruise control and autopilot. You won't be racing around much if you have a long distance to cover. Once you get to your destination you can make the decision to zoom around or conserve more energy and most likely you'll easily be able to zoom around.
     
  5. Al604

    Al604 Member

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    Hinckley, another factor you will need to remember is that during the winter, the car uses a good portion of energy to warm up the battery pack and cabin, also the regen will not be 100% until the battery pack is at optimal temperature. I've been seeing about 60-70% of rated range and that is conservative driving in temperatures 0-10 Celsius, short trips of 10-15 miles.
     
  6. snort

    snort Member

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    Franconia Notch is only 80 miles from the Hookset (Manchester) Supercharger, so places like Cannon and Loon will be no problem provided you don't go demoing ludicrous mode every 10 miles. But a few of the north slope places are a little farther--wildcat, conway, etc and might be a problem.

    But...there are plenty of slower chargers in the neighborhood of many of those. spend a little time studying the area on "www.plugshare.com". some of the resorts, and a lot of restaurants and such have them. it's not as bad as you might have thought. spend an hour on an 80 amp HPWC (about 60 RMPH) or even a 30 amp J1772 apres-ski and you'll go from range-anxious to fine. But a supercharger in the neighborhood of Franconia or Conway would not go amis.... (I haven't lived in beantown for over 30 years, but I always used to stop for dinner somewhere on the way back from skiing or hiking up there...)

    --Snortybartfast
     
  7. omarsultan

    omarsultan Active Member

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    The cooler temps are going to have bigger impact on range than P vs non-P. If you have specific places you go to ski, I would specifically check those routes out and see where the is en route and destination charging available.

    There is also a New England specific sub-forum--you might want to try also posting there--probably find folks with ore direct experience on the places you want to go.
     
  8. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    I had the same choice you did and went for the 90D. I was coming from a 911 and the 90D was plenty fast for me. It also had a smoother ride and tire replacement was less costly not to mention the ~$20k price difference.
     
  9. hinckley

    hinckley Member

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    Wow, great feedback guys.

    I'm considering T Sportline's new 20" turbine-style wheel (TST Pre-order - Tesla Aftermarket Wheel 20x9.0 20x10.0) for winter use. I'm hoping that they will be a good compromise.

    Does pre-heating solve or mitigate this issue?

    Yes, thanks. I'm thinking that I'll get to know the Hookset Supercharger well for summer trips to the Lake Winnipesaukee area in the summer. But in the winter, I generally head to Sunday River in Maine. I think charging is a bit more difficult on that more rural route.

    That's great. I didn't know that. More good advice there I'm sure.

    Ya, I'm not convinced that the P is really worth much. Tesla's website has been updated in the last few days and they're finally admitting that they measured zero to 60 differently for the P90D compared to the 90D. The one foot rollout method used for the P model really helps its performance figures. And ya, the 90D is probably just as fast to 60 as my 911.

    Let me ask a new (noob?) question. For non-Supercharger, enroute charging, would getting the dual charger be helpful?
     
  10. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Member

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    If you like the P90D, get the P90D, the range difference won't be that significant.

    The problem with ski trips is that you really need to have charging at your destination. Doesn't have to be anything fancy, a regular 110v outlet will be fine. Without that though you're going to have difficulty going on a trip of any duration as you will blow a ton of range just driving from the hotel to the slopes and back as the car tries to warm up the battery.

    Check out EV Trip Planner and see if you have enough range to get to your favorite resort and back. There is fantastic supercharger coverage in New England so it shouldn't be an issue though.
     
  11. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    #11 msnow, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
    Dual chargers are helpful *if* you can find high speed destination chargers along your route such as hotels and restaurants that you can use.
     
  12. hinckley

    hinckley Member

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    I'm trying to learn this stuff . . . a "high speed charger" is one of 40 amps or more, right? Is that a "Level 3" charger? Also, a dual charger would significantly decrease the time needed to charge at a supercharger, right? I know that these are all rookie questions, so thanks for the patients.
     
  13. Krugerrand

    Krugerrand Active Member

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    OP, can you ask for an extended test drive? I believe I've seen where people are getting a car for an entire weekend. Then drive the P90D on the route you'd take for your trips. Drive it like you stole it (you will of course not endanger himself, others on the road or the car) and see if the car works for you.
     
  14. DougH

    DougH Active Member

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    Do you want to buy asap or can you wait until the end of the year?
     
  15. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    Level 2 is 40 or 80 amp AC. Level 3 is high speed DC such as a Supercharger. Dual chargers make Level 2 AC charging faster if you have a n 80 amp source but make no difference to Supercharger since the DC bypasses the car chargers.
     
  16. hinckley

    hinckley Member

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    I've taken an 85D for a full day, but did not drive a normal "ski" route. From another post, I found the EV Planner site and being conservative (big wheels, very cold temps, driving fast), I'd need an enroute charge. But thanks to the New England forum, I've also found one or two chargers that I could use along the way, and a destination charger that I didn't know existed.

    I really don't need the car until the beginning of November and will likely wait until late-summer/early-fall to order. One more battery upgrade before then would really get me in the clear. Fingers crossed.

    Very, very helpful. Thank you. I am getting closer to feeling that I can do this. As a matter of fact, because I have some renovations underway, I gave my electrician a green light this morning to run conduit for a wall charger. Seems like a wise investment at this point.
     
  17. st50maint

    st50maint Member

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    You should have no problem skiing because Sunday River has three Tesla destination chargers. They are in the upper parking lot at South Ridge. Maybe I will see you there in the future.

    Sunday River Ski in Maine- 3 Tesla Chargers
     
  18. hinckley

    hinckley Member

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    Thanks, I just learned that this morning. Do you take your MS from LI to Sunday River?
     
  19. Al604

    Al604 Member

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    Yes, if your able to preheat then it does solve the problem. Not sure how you would preheat at the ski hill though...


     
  20. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    I'm not sure this is true. The Model S gets the longest range at 25-40 MPH. Surely that's not 80%-90% of the motor's max load. Increase the load with instant acceleration or over a longer period by driving at freeway speeds and your efficiency drops tremendously when compared to driving at 25-40 MPH.
     

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