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Advice on 2nd hand purchase appreciated

Discussion in 'The UK and Ireland' started by RWB82, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. RWB82

    RWB82 Member

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    Hey,

    I don't currently own a Tesla, i currently own an Evoque which I have had from new, it will be 3 years old in September and my finance runs until March time. I am in credit on my agreement though so can change my car at any time without any issues

    I have a Model 3 reservation which I made September last year (I was late to the party) which says early 2019, but in reality i have no clue when that might actually arrive so i can't hope for a perfect world where i hand back my Evoque and collect a Model 3 same day.

    I have for a long time wanted a Model X (think they are great and prefer the slightly higher ride height due to having had an 4x4) and whilst i don't earn a bad salary and could afford Model S money (can't afford an X!) with the 22k miles pa i do i just struggle to justify the monthly payment... i'm pretty good at up-selling myself as well (Evoque has everything on) but it's a lot of cash...

    I have had my car serviced this week and its probably 3-4 months off a new set of tyres (£1k), first MOT due end of September and next service due before I return my car is £600. I've started to question when should I swap out, i started browsing on auto trader and quickly started getting excited about the prospect of maybe buying a second hand Model S and then see what happens when the Model 3 is finally available next year (I suspect I might not want to change).

    I've been looking at the newer nose cone models at circa £50-55k. My basic maths has me believing I will be spending roughly what I do now per month if I put a bit towards it as i will be cutting out all the fuel, road tax. However my insurance looks to be more than what I pay now and i'm a little unsure how all the servicing works given there is very little moving parts but at 12,500 miles I would be effectively getting it serviced twice a year which could be costly.

    I'd appreciate any ones views on any things i need to consider that i might not have in terms of specific age or model to look out for etc.. what features i should make sure it has.. does any of the more recent tech changes help it to retain its value more like autopilot versions etc...

    Many Thanks
     
  2. cheshire cat

    cheshire cat Member

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    the only people I would trust to buy a second hand tesla are --tesla expensive but a lot of warranty with no quibble or there are two guys who are trust worthy one is Ryan Ross the other I forget but will post if I find out --I think you will get a better price but would need to check remaining warranty hope this helps
     
  3. RWB82

    RWB82 Member

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    Thanks, i would happily get one from Tesla but unless i'm looking in the wrong place they only have 1 used car on the site and its a 2014 85 RWD. Low mileage but not a great range to choose from.
     
  4. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    If you can charge the "company" the Government Rate for Mileage then Electric might work for you.

    In round figures an S will do 3 miles per kWh (a bit less in winter, and the X a bit less on both counts; a "3" a bit more :) ).

    If you charge overnight on Economy-7 (which I believe you can have "fitted" to your house easily) then that might be as low as 8p / unit (kWh). So 3-miles-for-8P which is obviously a lot less than the government mileage rate ... (at £1.30 a litre I make that 220 miles per gallon :cool: )

    You need to spend circa £600 have a Wall Charger fitted in your drive / garage (if you don't have off road parking then charging is going to be a hassle).

    I would also want to check that your daily routes are doable (either not exceeding range, or there is a Supercharger available, or perhaps you can top up a bit at Client sites (13 AMP socket gives about 6 miles-per-hour charge)

    I suggest you have a look at A Better Route Planner. Choose the model (S or X, presumably the 75 for your budget ... but obviously a bigger battery helps with range) and try various regular trips and see if Superchargers are needed / available / miles out of your way.

    An older car will come with free Supercharging. (I doubt that is the case for any 2nd car you buy directly from Tesla, but would be the case for a private sale). I charge about 12% at Supercharger, but in the grander scheme of things Electricity is so much cheaper than Petrol that it won't make a big difference to you.

    Range: See what A Better Route Planner gives you (the Government Figures are useless in terms of "real world range"), then assume that you will normally charge to only 90% and need to deduct, say, 20 miles as a "cushion". You can charge to 100% but you should not leave the battery stood for long in that state.

    The worst-case for "Range" is travelling-salesman, in Winter. If you stop for say an hour the battery will get cold. You will then use a disproportionate amount of energy for the next 20-ish minutes (cold battery = less efficient). Stop 4 times a day and that will be a huge energy-penalty (in Winter).

    But you will be leaving home, every morning, with that "full tank", so no need to waste time filling up once a week, or whatever.

    I recommend Tesla Info. He "scrapes" the adverts from various sources, so its a comprehensive list of what's likely to be available - and, if nothing else, should give you a good indication of price.

    Direct Line seem to be the most popular. They have a dedicated Tesla Team; make sure you get put through to them as the regular call centre don't seem to know all the details - for example, there is a small extra discount if your car has Autopilot fitted.

    For the miles you do (assuming not all on B-roads :) ) I would absolutely have Autopilot. In both Dual Carriageway and bumper-to-bumper it is superb, and significantly reduced fatigue. I read people saying that before buying and didn't believe it, as I'm a keen driver and have never minded "the miles". I am now definitely a convert, and on regular, late-at-night, journeys I have noticed a difference, as well as on long out-and-back-in-the-day journeys.

    However, once you have had it for a while, and it has driven faultless on its own, I urge you to resist the temptation to become complacent and "just do a quick text" or whatever. People have been killed on Autopilot, and in all cases seemingly in situations where they had plenty of time to react - if they had only been looking out of the window. So for me its always one-hand-on-wheel and foot over accelerator (more likely to have a sudden, unnecessary, braking moment, and risk of being rear-ended, than any need to override with the brakes).

    I have had zero scary moments on AP (27K miles p.a., two years ownership) but quite a few where I have chosen to steer ("Maybe that will be OK but I don't want to test it to find out" :) ) and quite a few phantom-braking - e.g. where the gap looked fine to me.

    And a small handful more where AP braked because there was an issue, which I had not seen, and several more where it alerted me because I was (intentionally) late braking. I don't care if AP or I detect a problem, clearly the both of us are better than just me on my own.

    And if I were to have a medical emergency, or fall asleep, the car would eventually decide I wasn't responding and slow down, hazards on, in lane. Not a good situation in the fast lane of the motorway :rolleyes: ... but way better than heading for the barrier or a ditch ...

    Tesla is disproportionately expensive for servicing. A Finance Deal may mandate the service interval, but Tesla warranty does not. There is definitely no oil. plugs, air filter, Cam Belt changes, and all the other "moving parts wearing out" and as such I service a bit less than once a year (so around 30K mile interval).
     
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  5. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    No London Congestion Charge either (but you do have to pay £10 p.a. for the Exemption Paperwork)
     
  6. RWB82

    RWB82 Member

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    Many thanks WannabeOwner ... most informative.

    I can claim the mileage through work, not sure what the current government recommended rate is but that is what my firm would pay. I don't yet have E7 but that can be easily changed, i'm due a swap to a new provider soon anyway.

    My normal commute is 25 miles, i drive past services which are about a mile from my house and both sides have Superchargers :). I then mostly travel to our offices 100 miles from mine, they offer however free charging and about 1.5 miles from the office are Superchargers.

    On the odd occasion i need to detour to somewhere else then i'll have to map it all out but in general i don't see it as a problem which is good.

    Appreciate the advice about Tesla info, AP and servicing, will take them all into account. Especially the servicing, that will save me a pretty penny.
     
  7. Peteski

    Peteski Active Member

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    Autopilot is definitely worth having. It's one of those things that looking back you wonder how you lived without it. It works in a lot more scenarios than I ever thought it would too. Older cars are AP1, newer cars AP2. I only have experience of AP2, but I believe AP1 is pretty good too - until very recently AP1 was considered by many to be better than AP2, but AP2 has improved a lot this year and now probably the best option and will continue to get better as updates continue. Either way, Autopilot is well worth having for most people.
     
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  8. Terry_B58

    Terry_B58 Member

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    RWB82

    The HMRC rate for mileage is 45p/mile for the 1st 10,000 miles then 25p/mile above that. Some companies pay that rate but others pay less. If paid less you fill in your tax return and claim the tax back on the difference :D

    I think the other company WannabeOwner was probably thinking about was 'R Symons' the rest of his comments are spot on (as usual).

    If you do the 'Man Maths' and manage to get a new model, then make sure you use a referral code, obtainable from any Tesla owner - choose one that helps you or, as in WannabeOwners case, he will give you his 'gift', I will donate a Tesla Flyer to my local Kiddies hospital when mine is used.

    Happy hunting, I have only been an owner since the end of March, I have now got just under 8000 miles on the clock as I travel all over the country. I have managed perfectly well on the Super Charger network and only charged once at a public charger in the Lake District during my first week of ownership (range anxiety) :D. Since then I have worked in Birmingham, London, Isle of Portland and a few 'local' jobs in Liverpool.
     
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  9. zap fizzle

    zap fizzle Member

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    They're great cars and a mostly-motorway usage is what they excel at.

    I second the comments about AP, it is essential.

    Out-of-warranty costs for repairs are pretty high, and at >20k/year you will burn through the 50k miles of the manufacturer warranty pretty quickly if you go for a new one. There are people who have got to big mileages without any significant repairs, but there are a *lot* of potential £5k bills in a Tesla. Keep some money aside.

    Parts supply to bodyshops is glacially slow and shambolic, and the thin aluminium body and cheap paint are very easy to damage. Get a decent insurance policy that will put you in a quality loan car if you have an accident - you don't want 6 months in a 1.0 Micra because you had a little bump.
     
  10. RWB82

    RWB82 Member

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    Thanks, i'm definitely already all over this and do it every year, as I get a car allowance my company pays the recommended government amount for a 2.0 diesel which is 11p per mile!!! Depending on your fuel/engine size depends what you get. I'd have to check Electric but believe its higher than what i currently get.

    Thanks Peteski - will make sure AP is on the shopping list

    I had read somewhere you can get an extended warranty to 100k miles as long as its purchased whilst still in warranty... does anyone know if this is true or the relevant cost?

    Thanks all
     
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  11. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    You won't want to be using them ...

    Two reasons: First is that Supercharging stresses the battery and used frequent it will then "cap" the charge rate on the car, at a slower speed. Secondly you won't want to be sitting there :)

    The thing about Supercharging is that (assuming you have work-charging and/or off-street parking, if not then of course you have to use charging "elsewhere") you will have started the journey with a "Full Tank", and if you have charging at Destination (i.e. work or when you return home) then all you need is enough Juice to get to destination. So, unlike Petrol where you fill the tank each time you stop, the best way to drive an EV is to stop for just enough (plus 20 mile "comfort" say) to get there.

    My real-world-range at 100% charge is 220 miles. I charge to 100% (just before I leave) if my journey will be more than 160 miles to allow for "Can you just pick up X" phone call from wife ... road closed ... torrential rain ... "I'm in a hurry" :rolleyes:. So if my out-and-back trip is 300 miles I need just an extra 80 miles to get there. Supercharging is fastest between 10% and 70% (80% is ok-ish too), above that it "Tapers" and slows down dramatically. The extra 80 miles will take about 15 minutes (all cars charge at the same percentage-rate, so you get more-miles-range in the same time with a bigger battery, plus you had more range to start with, Natch!). Any journey between 200 and 300 needs proportionately less than 15 minutes stop; basically barely enough time to pee and grab a coffee :) Longer journeys are a "road trip" and need multiple stops, which needs a slightly different strategy.

    Free charging? Wonderful! And they will pay you business mileage as well? I think your job needs to change so that they need you there a lot :)

    I think AP1 is still "good enough" for the improvements in AP2 to be marginal, so personally I wouldn't hesitate to get an AP1 car at this time. During your time-of-ownership AP2 will continue to improve, maybe by leaps and bounds, but for motorway driving either AP1 or AP2 does a really good job, right now.

    At this time AP2 cannot, yet, read speed signs. AP1 has always been able to do that. Handy for not getting caught by variable speed limits on motorways, or if you were not concentrating when you come into a restricted zone. Both show you (current) speed limit on Dash, but AP2 is database driven, and it is not perfect (and does not know about any temporary signs, which AP1 will "read"). I expect AP2 will get that soon, and quite possible e.g. Stop Lights at the same time (which I don;t think AP1 will ever get)

    Right now AP1 also slows down dramatically for the sign on the A1 North of Peterborough which has nice 50 in a circle and under that "In 1/2 a mile" ... Ah! These First World Problems!!

    Until recently both were weak over crests (even the ones on an undulating dual carriageway). Even though the road is dead straight, as the car crests each rise it starts hunting left-and-right. AP2 has that cured now.

    AP2 will do a lot of detail stuff too - such as properly negotiating motorway intersections with tight curves etc. - both staying in lane and choosing a sensible speed (AP1 sometimes too fast, but can also be dangerously slow). But personally I don't attempt to use AP1 in those scenarios, and might well find I'm freaked out enough not to use AP2 either :). AP is NOT AUTONOMOUS DRIVING and I feel much more comfortable to only let it do the drudge miles, and leave the technical bits to a proper expert :)

    That's the chap, thanks. Always gets good reviews on here.

    Not sure the paint is cheap? but as I understand it paint-over-aluminium is "soft" ("in general" and compared to steel cars).

    I had my car wrapped. Apart from the stone chip issue it also means I don't have to hurry to clean off pigeon poo, and snugging up against a scratchy hedge on a narrow rural road is not a problem. I was also side swiped by a Range Rover and although a couple of minor dents required bodyshop, after a wash the wrap was intact, no paint damage, and I swear from a distance no one would have noticed anything.
     
  12. sidmini

    sidmini Member

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    Would recommend buying direct from Tesla as the used cars will get 4 years warranty added on and full check through service history. Autopilot is definitely worth it and get the biggest battery you can afford.
     
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  13. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    #13 WannabeOwner, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
    Agreed.

    In case helpful (to O/P, and if O/P was not already aware)

    The obvious battery justification is "Additional cost / additional range" = Cost-per-mile. It a horrid (big) number ...

    Some other considerations:

    Start with "If you don't need the range then ...you don't need the range" :) If you want to afford it anyway then go ahead :)

    If you will travel out-of-range reasonably often then:

    1. You start with more range. So you go further before having to recharge. That may well mean you can avoid charging at all (on a given trip); or you have a choice of recharging locations [I avoid any with very few stalls in case "Occupied"] and/or you do not have to detour off route to find Supercharger.

    2. When you stop you need fewer miles to reach destination so you charge for less time.

    3. Batteries charge at same percent-per-minute rate, so a bigger battery gains more miles in a given amount of time. A 100 vs. a 75 will gain 1/3rd more miles (when charging between 10% and 70% only, above about 80% they will probably both be the same/similar)

    Only you can calculate whether that saving is worth it, for you.

    If you stop at Supercharger and do something productive e.g. EMails which you would otherwise have to do the moment you got home, then it probably makes no difference to you; its just time-shift.

    Bear in mind that an extra stop is a good 5 minutes just getting off the motorway, into the service centre, and back onto the motorway, even if all you did was just park-up and then immediately leave.

    I would also consider if you have any "regular" trips where you would have to charge on OUTBOUND leg. Personally I want ZERO of those. So I want range that will get me both TO client and BACK to the Supercharger. On my home bound trip I don't mind a delay, but if I got to the Supercharger on outbound leg, and all stalls were occupied - or even if I had to PAIR and the charge took me 50-100% longer - I then have an unpredictable delayed arrival time at Client,and for me that would be very annoying. Same if going to a wedding / funeral / dinner / whatever.

    I suppose if you can do emails then leaving n good time, charging (and doing emails), arriving early (hopefully!) at client, doing more emails whilst waiting, might be OK. But for me ... I'm too impatient!

    At 220 miles real-world-range I Supercharge on one or two days a month. Some of those days I supercharge more than once. If I had a 75 I would supercharge on a lot more days, so I would spend a hour, maybe more, extra "parked" in a month.

    If I had a 350 mile range battery I would Supercharger once a year, or less. Given what I know now, and given also that I don't mind the stops, I would pay for that.

    Supercharging is good for the driver - an enforced stop every couple of hours or so. It also works on a journey with young kids that need a Pit Stop. But for a passenger it just prolongs the trip.
     
  14. Peteski

    Peteski Active Member

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    I say get the biggest battery you need for your regular usage and any important trips. There's no point in hauling a few hundred kg of extra battery around if it's not being regularly utilised, even if money is no object.
     
  15. .jg.

    .jg. Member

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    I bought a secondhand Model S earlier this year. I bought privately, via an Autotrader advert, for about the midpoint of your budget.
    If buying a car still under the first four years of Telsa warranty, then the warranty will remain with the car, regardless of how you buy it. As out of warrantly repairs are prohibitively expensive, it is worth knowing that you can buy the extended warranty later, provided the car is under four years old and has covered less than 50K miles - but (from memory) this costs about £3800 for the additional four years.
    Tesla's registered/delivered before about April 2017(?) have free supercharging that stays with the car i.e. not limited to the first owner.
    Note that cars with a list price over £40K, registered after April 2017, are subject to car tax of £310 per year, after the first year, for five years. If you buy a Tesla registered before this date, the car tax is £0.
    There are some downsides in buying from Tesla - they have a "take it or leave it" attitude and you may have to put a deposit down on a car that you have not seen or driven. Tesla are also not helpful when it comes to service history. A private vendor will be able will be able to request records of all the work on the car (service, warranty, etc.) from Tesla and then forward it to you.
    Direct Line quoted me a premium dramatically cheaper than anyone else (about 1/3 of the next best price).
    When my house was being rewired, I chose to have a 32A Commando socket installed in my garage and I use this with the UMC that comes with the car. I might get a Tesla wall charger or a second UMC at some point - either allows charging at 32A/22 mph.
     
  16. RWB82

    RWB82 Member

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    Wow.... lots to take in, think i digested most of all your feedback thanks all... apologies if i then ask silly questions

    So effectively Supercharging frequently is bad? When does it become too frequent. Even at HO they have slow and fast chargers... you don't get to pick and choose, they even have have a wait list if you arrive too late to the office.

    I always have emails so my plan was to try and slip away a little earlier from the office, beat most the traffic and then work through them from the car.

    I totally want to if they had a range to choose from lol

    Do people recommend buying the warranty then... has anyone else done it, 50k miles does feel incredibly low given the price tag of the car new.

    I clearly haven't done enough research on this side of the purchase... i've just assumed whatever i need to buy will plug into the house.
     
  17. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    As the saying goes: "The only silly question is the one you don't ask" :)

    You would have to do it a lot. For example, if you choose to use "free" Supercharging instead of your home electricity. I doubt its a problem for anyone "normally", but it would be for someone who was always charging from Superchargers.

    Bjorn Nyland definitely has had it on his Teslas (including on a replacement battery pack on one of them). He pulls a trailer most of the time, so would be using more energy, and more Supercharging [for a given journey], and pretty much all his journeys are out-of-range and needing Supercharging and I guess he does 50K+ miles p.a.

    Don't worry about it, but don't plan on using Superchargers every day (to avoid [cost of] normal charging)

    I doubt the "Fast" chargers are fast enough to raise this issue. They'd cost £100K each, or something like that, if they were. Not sure what the distinction is though ... my guess is that if they are AC chargers, rather than DC, then they are not "fast" in this context.

    13AMP plug is 5 - 6 MPH charge rate. Wall charger on single phase is 22 MPH. 3-Phase somewhat quicker than that ... CHAdeMO around 150 MPH, Supercharger around 300 MPH ... there's a lot of difference there :) (Beore you get excited about 300 MPH you only get that rate if you are not sharing a stall-pair with another car, and only between 10% and 70% SoC, and other things are optimal - battery not cold-soaked etc.

    Battery and drive train is, I think??, unlimited mileage and 8 years warranty. So this is just for "anything else". Tesla parts and repairs are expensive, so I would say "definitely" need this for a high mileage driver.

    Wall Charger needs a wire running back to your distribution board (probably) in order to get enough Umph down the cable. If your distribution board is nowhere near where your wall charger will be (e.g. you have to dig up the drive :eek:) that will add to the cost. Other than that it should be straightforward. But you do need a wall charger really ...

    ... if you use the cable that comes with the car and a 13 AMP socket you will only be charging at 5 - 6 MPH, instead of 22 MPH, but also using that UMC cable daily may lead to wear & tear and that's an expensive cable to replace, plus if charging outdoors you will be putting it wet / dirty in the car each time you charge. With a tethered cable on the wall charger: come home, plug in, that's it.

    Only snag will be if your whole-house-main-fuse is "small". Unless your house wiring is really old I think that is unlikely.

    The Tesla [branded] Wall Charger has a button on the plug that opens the charge port - so you can grab the plug/cable, point at car, push button, and plug in. Otherwise you have to remember to press "Open Charge Port" on dashboard, before you get out, or press-and-hold the BOOT button on the fob for several seconds (which is fine of course ... just the wall charger is a better solution).

    Tesla Wall Charger [compared to 3rd party] is a good choice for other reasons too e.g. load-balancing when you have two cars on the drive to charge :)

    If you have Solar panels on the roof then there are other chargers which can balance using Solar / Grid to charge the car, and so on, but if you are "at work" when the sun is shining you won't be able to take advantage of that.
     
  18. DJP31

    DJP31 Member

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    Agree with @WannabeOwner about the Tesla wall charger, it’s a more expensive option but is the best looking tethered unit (cable attached) and the button operated release for the charge port flap on the car is useful. The UMC cable is not really designed for daily use, although some do.

    On a wet horrible day you want the plug/unplug to be as quick as possible, and not be faffing around with cables.

    The Supercharger use and throttling was first exposed by an owner in the US who only ever DC charged, using either a Supercharger or a CHAdeMO adapter. DC charging does stress the battery and if that’s all you do then throttling is likely at some point. That said, it’ll still be very quick compared to anything else, but slow charging is best.

    I totally get the attraction of using one and it’s free so why not but in the overall scheme of life it’s more convenient to get home, plug in and have the car start charging when the E7 rate kicks in. I stopped at a Supercharger at the weekend as it was on the way home, although I didn’t really need the charge my wife likes a bigger change range margin than I do. Cost me £100 for the meal in the pub o_O.

    Insurance wise, add LV to your list as they seem to be the next most friendly Insurer.
     
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  19. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    Hilarious!

    I've spent a small fortune at Starbucks since owning a Tesla, and I wish I had bought shares in M&M's before getting the car ... :)
     
  20. DJP31

    DJP31 Member

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    Yep, that too. I’m going to Darts Farm Supercharger next month on the way to Torquay for a wedding (I’m not invited, but the car has been to chauffeur the bridesmaids :)) and apparently there’s a farm type shop there that is adept at open wallet surgery.

    I’m taking the car to my detailer this morning was a ceramic top up etc, and none of this was factored in at the purchase point - so bear all this in mind @RWB82 o_O. I wouldn’t change any of it though, buying the Tesla is definitely one of my better decisions :D
     

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