Advice Wanted on EV Under $30k: Used S60, Wait for Used M3, Other?

[jebinc]

If considering used, Leaf and i3, why not a Bolt?

Agreed, as an entry into the EV word, the Bolt isn't a bad choice. When your budget (and wife) can handle it, upgrade to a new(er) M3 or MY. If going MY down the road, your argument for the wife is... "But hun, it's a minvan/SUV and is practical for our growing family...."

 

[IndyGopher]

The continued replies are so appreciated and helpful! I also posted on a Bolt forum where they've been equally helpful, so it's really given me a ton to think about -- but in a good way. To respond to a couple comments above:

• I'm definitely considering a Bolt -- both new and used -- and without having test driven any EV yet, it's probably my leader on paper. A 2017 with most options can be had in the low $20k's, and from what I can tell people love their Bolts and feel they're reliable. The lack of ACC is super annoying (LOVE this as I've mentioned), but everything else seems up to snuff. We'll see how comfortable the seats are for me (that seems to be a consistent knock), but I'm excited to try it.
• I've only ID'd one used MS under $30k so far and it's an S60 with some issues that bother me such as no AP, battery degradation (range under 160 mi), and some cosmetic problems. I definitely still want to drive or ride in an older MS to see if I fall in love...in which case I can hold out until I find one that fits the bill. Lack of warranty and the insurance costs worry me as a frugal person.
• I still plan to test a M3 SR+ at the end of all this just to see...but I have a hard time justifying the differences in cost. I'm not in a state that gets any incentives, so we really are talking a minimum of $36k after destination -- not to mention the larger tax hit. Since I don't plan to roadtrip and wouldn't get free supercharging at the station near me (both huge advantages for Tesla), I feel like I'd just be buying it for the panache. That's a good reason, but it's not really my style nor enough to justify the extra $15k or so. As some have mentioned here, maybe I get into something reasonable for now and pick up a M3 or Y in a few years -- perhaps a used one -- and make that my 10+ year car. Definitely an option.

Again, every reply is appreciated!

 

[Cheburashka]

The S60 won't have ACC either, it's range will be way lower, and reliability is far worse. Go for the Bolt, IMO.

 

[Yurand]

Bolt is the clear winner for a frugal person wanting an EV. It's not an ideal car for long distance travel, but will manage occasional longer trips you described, especially now with Electrify America charging stations coming online.

Advantage Bolt: price, range, reliability, warranty, efficiency, much smaller/easier to park
Advantage S60: cargo volume, safety, one of the best looking cars ever made

 

[dannycamps]

I find the range figures in the Model S to be overly optimistic. For example, a 20 mile drive in my Volt would use 20 miles of range (warm weather, flat roads, etc...). That same 20 mile drive in my Model S uses about 25 miles of range so the 160 the S60 is showing is probably not really 160.

 

[jebinc]

The continued replies are so appreciated and helpful! I also posted on a Bolt forum where they've been equally helpful, so it's really given me a ton to think about -- but in a good way. To respond to a couple comments above:

• I'm definitely considering a Bolt -- both new and used -- and without having test driven any EV yet, it's probably my leader on paper. A 2017 with most options can be had in the low $20k's, and from what I can tell people love their Bolts and feel they're reliable. The lack of ACC is super annoying (LOVE this as I've mentioned), but everything else seems up to snuff. We'll see how comfortable the seats are for me (that seems to be a consistent knock), but I'm excited to try it.
• I've only ID'd one used MS under $30k so far and it's an S60 with some issues that bother me such as no AP, battery degradation (range under 160 mi), and some cosmetic problems. I definitely still want to drive or ride in an older MS to see if I fall in love...in which case I can hold out until I find one that fits the bill. Lack of warranty and the insurance costs worry me as a frugal person.
• I still plan to test a M3 SR+ at the end of all this just to see...but I have a hard time justifying the differences in cost. I'm not in a state that gets any incentives, so we really are talking a minimum of $36k after destination -- not to mention the larger tax hit. Since I don't plan to roadtrip and wouldn't get free supercharging at the station near me (both huge advantages for Tesla), I feel like I'd just be buying it for the panache. That's a good reason, but it's not really my style nor enough to justify the extra $15k or so. As some have mentioned here, maybe I get into something reasonable for now and pick up a M3 or Y in a few years -- perhaps a used one -- and make that my 10+ year car. Definitely an option.

Again, every reply is appreciated!

Please keep us posted and let us know what you ultimately decided and how you like what you end up purchasing - "Closing the loop," so to say!

 

[KJD]

Wait a year or two for a used M3 (Let someone else take major depreciation hit, AP 2.5 and much better tech than all of the above, much better range...obviously have to wait a while and keep eyes on pricing while continuing to drive the Altima. I'm not desperate, but I'm ready).

There are used model 3's out there now.

Model 3 Trade-In Tesla Offer - Need Advice!

 

[Chris P]

My 2 cents: safety should be a very high priority. Tesla.

 

[neroden]

Would appreciate any advice. I drive a 2008 Nissan Altima with 175k miles. I've long wanted an EV, but I'm fairly frugal and couldn't justify the cost -- especially since my car runs fine. Well, the Altima is starting to make some weird noises, so I've preliminarily begun the search for a different car. My wife's CX-5 cost us about $30k OTD last year, so I've set the same limit for myself. It's arbitrary, but comfortable. In that price range, it seems I can afford the following:

• Used S60 (high mileage, usually '12 or '13 with no AP and no warranty. Free supercharging. Probably have to look hard and wait for the right one to pop up at this price.)

If you care about range, you can find a high-mileage used S85 for the same price. This surprised me, but watch the used market: you can get high-mileage used S85s in the '12 and '13 years for under $30K. I did. The S60s are arguably overpriced at the moment; the market doesn't seem to be properly differentiating between the 60s and the 85s right now.

• Wait a year or two for a used M3 (Let someone else take major depreciation hit, AP 2.5 and much better tech than all of the above, much better range...obviously have to wait a while and keep eyes on pricing while continuing to drive the Altima. I'm not desperate, but I'm ready).

If you want a more recent car, this is a good choice.

Some things to know about my situation:

• We live less than a mile from a supercharger, and it's right in front of the grocery store we visit weekly...so the free charging on a used S is appealing.
• I only commute about 30 miles RT to work and only 4 times/week. Would obviously drive other places on the weekends and things though.
• We don't roadtrip much. Perhaps two or three times a year, but never more than about 5 hours.
• I like keeping my cars for a long time to extract full value. I've purchased 3 cars in my life -- all new, and all kept for over 10 years. Like I said, I'm pretty frugal. I like to make a smart decision upfront and stick with it.
• I'm pretty handy and have done most of my car maintenance the past 6 years. Oil changes, tires, filters, brakes, etc.

If you don't roadtrip, a used Bolt or Volt is a reasonable choice. The advantage is that you won't have to deal with the screaming nightmare of trying to get through to Tesla service. The disadvantage is, no long electric road trips.

Don't get a Leaf or i3. Leaf batteries lose range badly, even the recent ones, and have poor durability. i3s are just overpriced, even in the used market, for what they are.

 

[neroden]

• I've only ID'd one used MS under $30k so far and it's an S60 with some issues that bother me such as no AP, battery degradation (range under 160 mi), and some cosmetic problems. I definitely still want to drive or ride in an older MS to see if I fall in love...in which case I can hold out until I find one that fits the bill. Lack of warranty and the insurance costs worry me as a frugal person.

Check out cars.com; there are quite a few used S85s from 2012-2014 for just under $30K.

If you want AP, however, prices start at $35K for 2015s. Wait a year, they might come down.

• I still plan to test a M3 SR+ at the end of all this just to see...but I have a hard time justifying the differences in cost. I'm not in a state that gets any incentives, so we really are talking a minimum of $36k after destination -- not to mention the larger tax hit. Since I don't plan to roadtrip and wouldn't get free supercharging at the station near me (both huge advantages for Tesla), I feel like I'd just be buying it for the panache. That's a good reason, but it's not really my style nor enough to justify the extra $15k or so. As some have mentioned here, maybe I get into something reasonable for now and pick up a M3 or Y in a few years -- perhaps a used one -- and make that my 10+ year car. Definitely an option.

Again, every reply is appreciated!

 

[joefee]

The way Model S has depreciated... you should not have to wait long for a used M3 to sell for 30k!

 

[joefee]

“Tesla is offering me $28k for a 4 month old Model 3 that I paid $37k for as a trade-in.”I saw this a few minutes after I posted....not very long at all!

 

[csriram45]

For your budget, I would add to what others have said. Brand New Bolt is now being sold for $13K-$15K off. Easily can get in one and last a long time.

 

[TonyT]

If you are willing to drive you should be able to find 85's for under 30 with higher miles. Both of our S's were under 30k.

 

[jebinc]

“Tesla is offering me $28k for a 4 month old Model 3 that I paid $37k for as a trade-in.”I saw this a few minutes after I posted....not very long at all!

Wow…

 

[maximizese]

“Tesla is offering me $28k for a 4 month old Model 3 that I paid $37k for as a trade-in.”I saw this a few minutes after I posted....not very long at all!

My guess is that the sales department within Tesla knows there are some folks out there who always want the latest features (like the old iPhone upgrade cycle) or that some people have remorse about not getting certain features. They would gladly undervalue your trade-in and get you into another new Tesla for some extra coin. Meanwhile, they'll 70-pt inspect your 4 month old M3 and turn around and sell it for $37K. I don't know how motivated they are to do this, but that would be an easy $6K-$9K without having to do much. On a large scare, it would goose their margins selling a profitable product more than once.

 

[IndyGopher]

Thanks for continuing to post, everyone -- it's super helpful! I still need to figure out a way to test a high mileage MS -- especially an 85. There's one used 60 available at a dealer nearby, but they want me to get loan preapproval to even test it. I guess they get a lot of requests. I could do that easily, but seems a hassle when I'm just starting my search.

I tested a 2018 Bolt Premier today with like every option. I liked it a lot, but I didn't fall in love. On paper (and online forums), the Bolt has been crushing for my situation...so I was super excited to try it. Here's a few very quick impressions:

• The torque was amazing, but I've driven a M3 LR so it didn't surprise me. It was still better than any ICE car I've owned, of course.

• Seating was comfortable enough and I liked the height -- much better than my Altima.

• Trunk was way smaller than I thought (definitely a backseat-going-down situation for my golf clubs), but the under-storage was cool and can hold a lot. Way smaller than my Altima, though...and any Tesla.

• Screen was nice and I love Android Auto/ACP integration...something I use a lot in my wife's CX-5 and really like.

• I was shocked how much the lack of the little things bothered me in such an expensive car. No adaptive cruise, weak lane departure assist (IMO), not even a power driver's seat...let alone memory settings. Compared to my wife's CX-5 (not a luxury car, mind you), it felt very utilitarian.

I think for the right price, a used Bolt would be a real value proposition and a great intro to the world of EV's for me. Few range worries, solid reliability, some remaining warranty. But for new, even at 30% off MSRP, it still feels overpriced to me. I obviously know the bulk of the cost is the battery and drivetrain, so I tried to look past the little stuff. But for whatever reason, I left wanting more. Maybe I was super psyched by all the glowing reviews from people online. And I was probably spoiled by all the Tesla research I've done. Who knows.

I also drove a 2019 Leaf, by the way...although I'm not considering it very seriously due to my concerns about long-term battery health. It also felt pretty pedestrian aside from the torque. Equipped with much better comfort/convenience options -- those little things I mentioned above. But still, a lackluster screen, interface, and interior that to me that screams "Sentra" rather than $35k MSRP.

Tomorrow I'm driving lower range, used EVs from MB (250e) and BMW (i3). I'm curious how much more luxurious the interiors they'll feel. I'm not a snob in the least (I drive an 11 year old Altima), but the CX-5 is like a luxury car without the price tag. Anyway, range on the MB and BMW concerns me -- especially in a Midwest winter or if the batteries degrade at all -- but like I said, I don't plan to road trip in the car. It was cool today to think about how I COULD do that in a Bolt, but I'm not likely to ever HAVE to.

Anyway, thanks again...and feel free to continue chiming in! This is going to be a hard decision!

 

[jebinc]

Thanks for continuing to post, everyone -- it's super helpful! I still need to figure out a way to test a high mileage MS -- especially an 85. There's one used 60 available at a dealer nearby, but they want me to get loan preapproval to even test it. I guess they get a lot of requests. I could do that easily, but seems a hassle when I'm just starting my search.

I tested a 2018 Bolt Premier today with like every option. I liked it a lot, but I didn't fall in love. On paper (and online forums), the Bolt has been crushing for my situation...so I was super excited to try it. Here's a few very quick impressions:

• The torque was amazing, but I've driven a M3 LR so it didn't surprise me. It was still better than any ICE car I've owned, of course.

• Seating was comfortable enough and I liked the height -- much better than my Altima.

• Trunk was way smaller than I thought (definitely a backseat-going-down situation for my golf clubs), but the under-storage was cool and can hold a lot. Way smaller than my Altima, though...and any Tesla.

• Screen was nice and I love Android Auto/ACP integration...something I use a lot in my wife's CX-5 and really like.

• I was shocked how much the lack of the little things bothered me in such an expensive car. No adaptive cruise, weak lane departure assist (IMO), not even a power driver's seat...let alone memory settings. Compared to my wife's CX-5 (not a luxury car, mind you), it felt very utilitarian.

I think for the right price, a used Bolt would be a real value proposition and a great intro to the world of EV's for me. Few range worries, solid reliability, some remaining warranty. But for new, even at 30% off MSRP, it still feels overpriced to me. I obviously know the bulk of the cost is the battery and drivetrain, so I tried to look past the little stuff. But for whatever reason, I left wanting more. Maybe I was super psyched by all the glowing reviews from people online. And I was probably spoiled by all the Tesla research I've done. Who knows.

I also drove a 2019 Leaf, by the way...although I'm not considering it very seriously due to my concerns about long-term battery health. It also felt pretty pedestrian aside from the torque. Equipped with much better comfort/convenience options -- those little things I mentioned above. But still, a lackluster screen, interface, and interior that to me that screams "Sentra" rather than $35k MSRP.

Tomorrow I'm driving lower range, used EVs from MB (250e) and BMW (i3). I'm curious how much more luxurious the interiors they'll feel. I'm not a snob in the least (I drive an 11 year old Altima), but the CX-5 is like a luxury car without the price tag. Anyway, range on the MB and BMW concerns me -- especially in a Midwest winter or if the batteries degrade at all -- but like I said, I don't plan to road trip in the car. It was cool today to think about how I COULD do that in a Bolt, but I'm not likely to ever HAVE to.

Anyway, thanks again...and feel free to continue chiming in! This is going to be a hard decision!

Many here will disagree with me on this, but if you only have $30k to spend, you shouldn’t spend it on a high mileage 4-6 year old MS. Why? Because if anything major goes out, like the MCU, DU, etc., you’ll be spending a lot more than $30k, and probably more than a new M3 SR+ All totaled. If you run probabilities on a $6000 or more failure in that MS, against $30k, I think you’ll quickly conclude your NTE (Not To Exceed) $30k is better spend elsewhere, or saved until you can get into a newer used S, or a brand new M3. YMMV. Perhaps drive your Altima another year and put away another $10k for an even mature new M3? I think it will be worth the wait.

Edit: Case and point. This one posted today. Point being, MCUs in older Ss are known to fail. I didn’t read the whole theead, but if out of warranty, this OP will see a large bill. Perhaps he posted an update later in the thread. Worth scanning.
Tesla (the company) killing itself slowly?

 

[rocketshipp85]

With the supercharger so close to you, I would say having free unlimited supercharging is pretty valuable. On a side note I have a late 2012 85 that I’m interested in selling for a little less then 30k if your interested.

 

[cwerdna]

(Sorry, I haven't read all the replies but one of my EVs is a '19 Bolt Premier w/driver confidence II, DC FC inlet and infotainment package. I also have been driving Leaf for ~6 years now.)

New Bolt's are pretty heavily discounted in some parts of the country. Examples below:
Fremont - New Bolt EV Vehicles for Sale - I bought from this dealer at end of Jan 2019 when tax credit on GM EVs/PHEVs was still $7500. Now it's $3750. If you want the DC FC inlet, you must get one with the $750 option (check window sticker links on dealer web sites) as it doesn't come with either trim and can't be added later.
Currently, LT's (with NO DC FC inlet) begin at just under $26K before $3750 tax credit.
Concord 2019 Chevrolet Bolt EV for Sale at Concord Chevrolet

Charge!!!: Current Discounts on Selected EVs points to Electric Vehicle Price Guide - best EV discounts from dealers in the US - Electrek. I can't speak how reputable most dealers on the list are.

If you buy a used Bolt, don't overpay for it! When I looked in Jan 2019, there were NO good used Bolt deals vs. buying a new one and taking the full tax credit. Will be interesting to see what happens when Bolts 3 year leases end. Will they flood the used market and depress prices? They began selling in mid-Dec 2016 and AFAIK, GM only allowed 3 year leases back then.

Yes, the LKA/LDW on Bolt is lame. It's virtually useless. Interior quality of the Leaf is better than Bolt, IMHO. Yes, the interior of the Bolt is pretty lousy. I do like CarPlay and use it all the time.

If you plan to keep the car beyond 5 years or 60K miles, keep in mind the EV system warranty (including drive unit) is 8 years/100K miles on Bolt vs. 5 years/60K miles on Leaf.

See page 13 of https://www.chevrolet.com/content/d...index/owners/warranty/02-pdfs/19_CHEV_WM_.pdf vs https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...ides/LEAF/2019/2019-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf page 6 from NOP | MANUALS & GUIDES.

I wouldn't say the Bolt's ultra reliable. I'd say it's reasonably reliable, so far. It's done ok in Consumer Reports reliability ratings, so far, not awesome. You can post your Bolt questions over at Chevy Bolt EV Forum - Active Topics. Leaf questions can go to My Nissan Leaf Forum - Information.

Back to some the other earlier comments about potentially expensive out of warranty repairs on a used S (e.g. MCU), here's an example: Clunking sound is costing me a bundle to fix out of warranty.

What if these aren't covered?
Another front suspension control arm failure
Cracked forelink?

What about an on-board charger, drive unit or battery pack once those are out of warranty?
Model S Not Ready For Commercial Use Prime Time. Can I afford to own this car?
$2700 to fix MCU. Might DIY, but how much to reprogram new unit?

For MCUs, Google for site:teslamotorsclub.com mcu "model s" replace.

I would much rather have a new 3 w/warranty than an out of warranty or mostly out of warranty used S that you picked up for "cheap".