AEB simply won't work

[SoCal Tsla]

On a non-Tesla (Cadillac), my wife was backing up, and would have brushed against a rose bush if she kept going. It slammed on the brakes in reverse at low speed and scared the crap out of her.

But was that a solid enough threat to warrant AEB? It probably could not tell what kind of object it was, but did not set off the Pedestrian Warning System so it knew it wasn't a person. It does ID humans behind the car as humans.

Perhaps the AEB in the Tesla is looking for a stronger signal reflection than a box would allow. I would have put foil inside or outside of the box.

But kudos for doing the test. Some folk are in deathly fear of something stiffer than a cotton diaper touching their car.

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For the artifact I'd start with a 4' x 8' x 1" sheet of foam from Home Depot ($12), put foil on one side (either), and hold it up with string a duct tape to supports. A lot more work, but will mimic a car reflection better. Maybe even 2 red circles of paper to mimic tail lights.

Someone commented in reddit saying that foil won't work, so I'll try something else... water ballon is what I'm thinking about now

 

[SoCal Tsla]

I think everyone said it already: Your experiment only proves that Tesla does not detect PAPER. If there's no DETECTED obstacle, the department of AEB doesn't have to respond!

1) Failure to detect:

The system needs detect an obstacle and you can see that result on your Instrument Cluster Display as a car icon.

Your Instrument Cluster Display never did display any obstacles except in a fraction of a second for the gigantic Ditch Digger from far away.

At this stage, you need to figure out how your Tesla can detect a box before you can carry on the experiment.

Both camera and radar are responsible to detect an obstacle.

I don't know why the camera didn't detect the box. It could be that Tesla Vision needs some learning.

We know that radar can go through fog and a carton box so may be you can wrap it with aluminum foil.

2) Instrument Cluster Displays an obstacle--TACC:

Once you get your box detected as displayed on Instrument Cluster due to aluminum foil, you can try to drive toward the box with TACC or autosteer (if available) set at 18MPH.

The car should brake itself as if it encounters stopped cars at a red light.

3) Instrument Cluster Displays an obstacle--AEB:

If it works for TACC, it should work for AEB. Now, you can manually drive your car slowly toward the box.

That's a nice procedure, thanks, will try that!

A few points as comment tho...

1. FCW has stopped working for me and I have no idea what the hack is happening there. No chimes like in my previous videos ever now.

2. Someone on reddit confirmed foil is not enough, so I'll need to try something else...

 

[SoCal Tsla]

AEB is radar based. Radar can only see things which reflect RF energy. Plastic and cardboard does not. You need to cover it in aluminum foil. Pull up to it slowly first and make sure TAAC sees it and you get a car symbol on the dash.

You knocked off this exact test from a year ago, which was full of the same comments:

hmm interesting, so AEB was enabled in AP1 very early then?

btw I think I did a better job protecting my car lol

 

[SoCal Tsla]

Here's a link for how the Euro NCAP AEB test target (also used by IIHS) was designed:
http://euroncap.blob.core.windows.n...13-0-4e8e68e0-7487-4b23-a3d6-aac700080661.pdf

This is how the test target looks relative to the actual vehicle.
View attachment 228798View attachment 228799
Under the cover, there is foil to simulate the radar signature of a car:
View attachment 228800

This is the NCAP pedestrian test target:

AEB Pedestrian | Euro NCAP

A cardboard box is not going to cut it as a test target.

I'll see what I can do for that experiment lol

 

[SoCal Tsla]

How about we get a TMC representative to sit on the engineering team that designed the AEB system and report back to us customers. Why would we ever trust Tesla. We should question all of their claims. Why stop with AEB? Let's challenge...say...side collision. No...wait...how about steering.

Does Tesla have videos about their functionality verification? I mean I think they should have passed some tests before they can claim it, but now that a lot of things are software based, some software glitches can easily ruin a functionality. My FCW has stopped working for a few weeks, and I've got no warning signs for sensors or whatever...

 

[Tam]

...they should have passed some tests...

I guess because it is work in progress and owners are hired as free laborers to guard the system making sure to bail it out at all times, so, why would Tesla waste time to issue a validated test video to the public?

 

[Skotty]

One thing I'll say -- I think it should be mandatory (or at least highly recommended) that any manufacturer who claims AEB as a feature must also provide details on the scenarios under which it is designed to engage. Only then can there be a clear understanding of when it's working as intended and when it's not, and only then will there not be a high likelihood of misunderstandings between the manufacturer and their customers.

 

[stopcrazypp]

One thing I'll say -- I think it should be mandatory (or at least highly recommended) that any manufacturer who claims AEB as a feature must also provide details on the scenarios under which it is designed to engage. Only then can there be a clear understanding of when it's working as intended and when it's not, and only then will there not be a high likelihood of misunderstandings between the manufacturer and their customers.

True and that information is in the manual for the specific car.

 

[MS16]

I'm wondering about AEB too.
Just look at this incident on a Dutch highway May 15th. https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.sergekroes.com/media/EVT_2017_05_15_07_23_06_F.MP4

Read more about it here.

What were the circumstances surrounding this accident? AP1 or AP2 ?

 

[McRat]

What were the circumstances surrounding this accident? AP1 or AP2 ?

Following distance, ~0.95 seconds (105 feet) at 121 kmh (82.5 mph). Brakes applied gently ~.25s prior to impact. Impact 116 kmh.
2.85 seconds from Peugeot brake lights to impact.

Love the flashing brake lights on the Volvo. Nice. The following distance sort of doomed the driver unless he was looking 3+ cars ahead. Everybody was tailgating.

Root cause, following too close. This was not an accident, this is a normal outcome at that speed and following distance.

AEB system? Failed if so equipped. Plenty of time for system to come on and reduce the impact speed. 5 kmh is a joke. For the math wizards out there, the Tesla should have slowed down at about 25 fps per second. But it becomes a calculus formula since slowing down gives you more time to slow down. If you give the system a full second to apply the brakes, I'm still not sure there would be an impact.

 

[PaulusdB]

What were the circumstances surrounding this accident? AP1 or AP2 ?

It involved an AP 1 equiped car with the system turned on.

 

[MS16]

That's an odd failure of the ACC system to prevent or greatly minimize a routine crash scenario (not an edge case). The radar should have easily detected the Volvo braking which would have given plenty of response time to avoid rear ending the Peugeot. Even if it didn't detect the Volvo, the system seemed slow to react to the Peugeot.

 

[Tam]

...mandatory...

Consumer groups demanded that AEB to be a law but the companies sweet talked to the US government and a "commitment" was reached for 2022.

It is not a law. It is not a requirement. There is no penalty if 2022 commitment will not be carried out.

 

[Skotty]

Consumer groups demanded that AEB to be a law but the companies sweet talked to the US government and a "commitment" was reached for 2022.

It is not a law. It is not a requirement. There is no penalty if 2022 commitment will not be carried out.

You misunderstand. I'm not advocating for mandatory AEB. I was just advocating for clear communication about how exactly AEB works if the car is equipped with it.

 

[Tam]

You misunderstand. I'm not advocating for mandatory AEB. I was just advocating for clear communication about how exactly AEB works if the car is equipped with it.

Ok. You are right that consumers can easily assume how great Tesla AEB is after the see other non-Tesla commercials:

 

[SoCal Tsla]

Ok. You are right that consumers can easily assume how great Tesla AEB is after the see other non-Tesla commercials:

Yeah this kind of commercial is nothing but misleading...

 

[PaulusdB]

Following distance, ~0.95 seconds (105 feet) at 121 kmh (82.5 mph). Brakes applied gently ~.25s prior to impact. Impact 116 kmh.
2.85 seconds from Peugeot brake lights to impact.

Love the flashing brake lights on the Volvo. Nice. The following distance sort of doomed the driver unless he was looking 3+ cars ahead. Everybody was tailgating.

Root cause, following too close. This was not an accident, this is a normal outcome at that speed and following distance.

AEB system? Failed if so equipped. Plenty of time for system to come on and reduce the impact speed. 5 kmh is a joke. For the math wizards out there, the Tesla should have slowed down at about 25 fps per second. But it becomes a calculus formula since slowing down gives you more time to slow down. If you give the system a full second to apply the brakes, I'm still not sure there would be an impact.

Follow up: Tesla Netherlands contacted the driver in response to his TMC postings. They were startled by the event, expressing their concern for his personal wellbeing. Inspecting the car and logfiles, they confirmed AP was active, but found nothing out of the ordinairy.

My personal hope is that this event leads to improvement of the safety systems in the car.

 

[Blastphemy]

Yeah this kind of commercial is nothing but misleading...

This is exactly how emergency braking worked (flawlessly) in my 2010 Infiniti FX50. There is nothing misleading about that video. Too bad this feature doesn't seem to actually be real in the Model X.

 

[Tam]

This is exactly how emergency braking worked (flawlessly) in my 2010 Infiniti FX50. There is nothing misleading about that video. Too bad this feature doesn't seem to actually be real in the Model X.

It is easy to have an incomplete understanding of AEB by watching an advertisement because it doesn't disclose that only SOME AEB work like that and NOT ALL AEB (such as Tesla's) work like that.

One can claim their AEB works flawlessly if they can meet one of the 2 criteria:

1) Automatically brake to avoid a collision

or

2) Automatically brake to mitigate the collision (such as Tesla's)


And even when AEB works as above 2 criteria, it does not have to work at all speed: Some choose low speed, Tesla chooses high speed.

 

[SoCal Tsla]

It is easy to have an incomplete understanding of AEB by watching an advertisement because it doesn't disclose that only SOME AEB work like that and NOT ALL AEB (such as Tesla's) work like that.

One can claim their AEB works flawlessly if they can meet one of the 2 criteria:

1) Automatically brake to avoid a collision

or

2) Automatically brake to mitigate the collision (such as Tesla's)


And even when AEB works as above 2 criteria, it does not have to work at all speed: Some choose low speed, Tesla chooses high speed.

Tesla is on 7-28mph right? I thought that was low...