Afraid to trust navigation system

[HankLloydRight]

My wild-ass guess with no inside information is this: The touchscreen takes the google-searched for location/destination address, and passes that back to the Navigon module. Navigon calculates the route, and then passes back to the touchscreen(Google) maps a set of waypoints to display the route on the touchscreen. I've never seen them differ, and if they do differ, I'd guess that that happens during a route re-calculation in Navigon before it has passed the waypoints to Google maps to draw. It does seem like a Rube Goldberg device patched together that just seems to work "good enough".

What really gets my goat is that NONE of the google maps are cached, and even when navigating the same area, or zooming in or out, it has to re-draw the map from the network. Come on Tesla, how about caching the maps for just ONE DAY? I know Google might have some TOS prohibiting that, but do something to fix it. Over 3G, it's painfully slow to watch the redraw for a map IT JUST DREW 30 seconds ago.

 

[jerry33]

Edit: I just may have figured out a piece of this myself, though I could still use some help with it. Perhaps Google Maps is only supplying the actual maps for the 17 inch display, but none of the routing / navigational information. That would explain why it's not working as well as Google Maps on our phones and computers. Is that right?

Correct. Google supplies the background maps and the location search, it then sends the destination information to Navigon. The blue travel line on the 17" display is done by Navigon, not Google. This is easily seen if you are out of 3G range (just drive through Kansas). The maps won't display but the blue line will still be there.

 

[PaulusdB]

Abandoning Navigon altogether is 100% under Tesla Motors' control.

 

[Andyw2100]

Abandoning Navigon altogether is 100% under Tesla Motors' control.

Not necessarily sure I'd want this either, though.

I'm guessing it is Navigon supplying the quite cool information on the dashboard that shows stuff like the graphical depiction of the actual highway signs at various highway intersections, exits, etc., right? In the little I have used the system, I thought that had the potential to be really helpful, if it could be relied on.

 

[JohnQ]

As a point of reference, Navigon was purchased by Garmin at the end of 2011. I've had Navigon on my iDevices for a while; it has provided good navigation on mobile devices as well as on the Tesla. Note that Navigon does offer standard features like "avoid highways," "avoid toll roads" and others, it's just not implemented on the Tesla.

For those interested in really high quality, up-to-date maps, take a look at Open Street Map. It's incredibly un-user friendly for downloading to GPS devices but I much prefer it over Garmin maps (plus it's free) for bike riding.

 

[TexasEV]

What really gets my goat is that NONE of the google maps are cached, and even when navigating the same area, or zooming in or out, it has to re-draw the map from the network. Come on Tesla, how about caching the maps for just ONE DAY? I know Google might have some TOS prohibiting that, but do something to fix it. Over 3G, it's painfully slow to watch the redraw for a map IT JUST DREW 30 seconds ago.

I thought the onboard storage originally intended for music was being used to cache the Google maps.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I thought the onboard storage originally intended for music was being used to cache the Google maps.

Maybe, put I never see any cached maps. All I see is constant redraws and wait states for data download.

I can't believe the processor is that slow.

 

[bollar]

Tesla purchases the Nav software from Navigon. Navigon updates yearly. That's not under Tesla's control. The Google maps used in the 17" display should be up to date.

Not that it really matters, but Navigon makes updates available at least quarterly to their clients.

- - - Updated - - -

As a point of reference, Navigon was purchased by Garmin at the end of 2011. I've had Navigon on my iDevices for a while; it has provided good navigation on mobile devices as well as on the Tesla. Note that Navigon does offer standard features like "avoid highways," "avoid toll roads" and others, it's just not implemented on the Tesla.

Yeah, Navigon is a great standalone product -- If Tesla stays with Navigon, I wish they would implement more of the standard Navigon features (and push updated maps to us on a much more regular basis).

 

[Newscutter]

Andyw2100 -- getting back to the original post-- I think the car was likely trying to keep you on the largest available road on or approximating your route. The initial routing probably kept you on the Thruway until Route 34 -- and then straight south into Ithaca. When you deviated "early" to stay on the west shore of Cayuga Lake, I'm guessing the side roads it kept suggesting were to get you onto Route 96, which is a larger road.

I've seen some strange routes here and there where I have a strong preference to stay OFF the larger roads, but I've also been bailed out a few times. One in particular:

When commuting I routinely used the navigation (on mute!) just to have an approx time of arrival at home/work-- and with my work scheduled in the calendar as a recurring event this is pretty painless to do... one tap I think. Anyway, coming home one night on I279 north of Pittsburgh, I noticed the map directions flicker out of the corner of my eye. They had clearly changed but it wasn't clear why. I normally would pull up the main map to the full center display but in the light fast moving traffic and curvy road I couldn't. As I approached the Camp Horne Rd exit, as far as I could see in the distance around the bend past the exit, the traffic remained light and fast moving. Grr... what to do?? I decided to trust the car despite no clear evidence. The car then directed me onto a smaller secondary road that parallels my usual route and crosses 279 and 79 a couple times in the process. Sure enough, the next glance I had of the highway it was completely stopped and all lanes jammed-- just PAST where I could see when I exited. Meanwhile I was cruising along enjoying the twisty road having barely slowed down from when I left my workplace. Eventually I came across a red light and could confirm on the main display that traffic was SCREWED on the highway. Wow. Each time I crossed the road on my seemingly meandering route, I looked down to see more frozen brake lights and headlights below me-- I assume an accident somewhere that happened AFTER I started my drive but before I exited the highway. In the end, I was home within 5 minutes of my normal arrival. I have no doubt that taking my normal route would have meant a delay of at least an hour, perhaps more.

So, it CAN work... and I've learned to trust the navigation more-- ESPECIALLY when I see it change the routing dynamically.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I thought the onboard storage originally intended for music was being used to cache the Google maps.

Maybe, put I never see any cached maps. All I see is constant redraws and wait states for data download.

I can't believe the processor is that slow.

It does cache maps, but appears to do it for only the current zoom level. It (mostly) uses bitmaps instead of vectors, so when you zoom in/out it needs to re-download the maps. I say "mostly" because it appears they switched to vector-based street names since the names no longer go upside-down when in heading-up mode like they used to.

I can park in my cellular and wifi-free garage and scroll around the map where I've recently been as long as I don't change the zoom level.

The processor is pretty slow, which is why the rotation is choppy in heading-up, and the 3G cellular isn't exactly speedy either. So it's the combination of a lot of stuff.

 

[Bill D]

It does cache maps, but appears to do it for only the current zoom level. It (mostly) uses bitmaps instead of vectors, so when you zoom in/out it needs to re-download the maps. I say "mostly" because it appears they switched to vector-based street names since the names no longer go upside-down when in heading-up mode like they used to.

Your observation of map-cache at the current zoom level would explain the anomalies I've experienced including conflicting directions between the dash & touch screen. The touch screen directions also seem to be cached along with the maps. Changing the zoom level puts the touch screen in sync with the dash, which isn't cached.

 

[Andyw2100]

Andyw2100 -- getting back to the original post-- I think the car was likely trying to keep you on the largest available road on or approximating your route. The initial routing probably kept you on the Thruway until Route 34 -- and then straight south into Ithaca. When you deviated "early" to stay on the west shore of Cayuga Lake, I'm guessing the side roads it kept suggesting were to get you onto Route 96, which is a larger road.

I agree it was trying to keep me on bigger roads, but too much bigger, and it wanted to take me through Syracuse! I'm attaching Mapquest images of the route I wanted to take (and did take) and the route the navigation system would have had me take. (I'm partially guessing at parts of the navigation system route, but it definitely wanted me to stay on the Thruway through Syracuse. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, and taking the most direct route down to Ithaca from Syracuse. It could have had something more bizarre planned for me.)

 

[bhzmark]

Use waze

 

[Andyw2100]

Use waze

That's a really helpful, insightful post. Thanks so much.

I am well aware of other routing options, and mentioned some in my opening post. None of them, however, integrate with the car. Maybe it's just me, but in my mind getting the route right is kind of an important feature for a car's built-in navigation system. Do I think Tesla will eventually get it right? Absolutely! Do I think they have gotten it right yet? Absolutely not. Was my appreciation of the "Use Waze" post sarcastic? I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

 

[PaulusdB]

I currently use iPhone Waze in mij Tesla Model S P+ and am perfectly happy with it.
When the onboard nav will be as useful as Waze (or more useful), I'll stop doing that.

So, not in the near future, I fear.

 

[alexucf]

That's a really helpful, insightful post. Thanks so much.

I am well aware of other routing options, and mentioned some in my opening post. None of them, however, integrate with the car. Maybe it's just me, but in my mind getting the route right is kind of an important feature for a car's built-in navigation system. Do I think Tesla will eventually get it right? Absolutely! Do I think they have gotten it right yet? Absolutely not. Was my appreciation of the "Use Waze" post sarcastic? I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

The sad truth is that the tesla nav is... a bit whacky. Sometimes the map doesn't match the instructions, sometimes the instructions take me off the highway and immediately back on, sometimes they add a ton of distance (presumably to save battery?).

Whatever the reason, if we're really in need of directions we use our iPhone, not the car. Considering it's powered by google maps I have no idea how it's so strikingly inferior to the google maps app. If it's tesla trying to save us battery life, I wish they'd just give us the option to configure the 'mode' of it (shortest time vs. route vs. battery or something)

 

[RichardL]

I wonder if 6.1 improves any of these issues? Haven't seen any comments on that subject as everyone is rushing around using TACC :biggrin:

 

[bhzmark]

I currently use iPhone Waze in mij Tesla Model S P+ and am perfectly happy with it.
When the onboard nav will be as useful as Waze (or more useful), I'll stop doing that.

So, not in the near future, I fear.

Exactly. Until any car implements waze in their on board navigation system I wldnt ever trouble myself with exploring or caring about their crappy nav system.

Everything else is much less useful compared to waze. because of the crowd sourced traffic (and speed trap and road closure etc.) info waze has a monopoly on the best nav info.

In short, use waze.

And use pro clip to hold your phone.

 

[RiverBrick]

Sadly not. The car is connected to wifi at home and I have asked @service and the Service Cemter about it and both say that I'll get it when it's my turn.

Sorry to hear that. Perhaps you should tell them you can't access wi-fi from your parking spot, in case they can push the update in anyway at the Service Center.

 

[bollar]

You can see what it is doing here. Trying to avoid that large section of red ahead. While not direct, it is probably faster based on the navigation algorithm it is using and may even be faster in real life given the amount of heavy traffic you would avoid. If you turn off the "use traffic" option in the app settings, you will get the more direct route thru the heavy traffic.

I'm still having fun with navigation. I got my hopes up yesterday when I got this message:

A reboot cleared the error, but I still get routing like this:

I contacted @service about both issues (again), but haven't heard back.